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  • Irresponsible and Unethical Breeders

    This post generally refers to dogs but can encompass unethical breeders of any kind of animal. I come at this from the standpoint of an animal lover, rescuer, and breeder.

    That's right, I'm a breeder. I breed society and lady gouldian finches. I'm a member of the NFSS (National Finch and Softbill Society). I do everything I can to ensure my birds are healthy and happy, breed on a very low scale, have a full sales contract, interview potential buyers extensively, and maintain contact.

    I understand that most people don't fully realize the scope of the problem with most dog breeders, that they are generally good at heart and simply uneducated or naive about the way things work. So let me address some common points and myths about dogs and dog-breeding.


    Breeding, when done correctly, will almost always cost you money, NEVER make it for you. A breeder should be only be breeding females that are two years or older (most breeds), so there is the cost of the female, and the cost of feeding her for two years. Not to mention the cost of the full series of shots. And that's just the beginning. A good breeder will usually have their dogs certified in any 'working' area that dog is bred to do...i.e. a spaniel breeder will usually have their dogs field and gun certified...a doberman breeder would likely have their dogs Shutzhund certified...an aussie breeder would have them herding or agility certified. More importantly, the breeder will have their dog up to their conformation championship, to insure that the dog is a solid representative of their breed.

    A lot of people will pass off conformation championships as unimportant...a usual excuse is 'but everyone says my dog could be a show dog!'. Unless they're qualified judges familiar with every inch of the particular breed standard, it doesn't matter. If you continuously breed dogs out of the breed standard, you eventually add up with puppies that look nothing like their breed. A german shepherd with a high back and floppy hound ears, for example... or a stocky, short nosed doberman. Conformations are crucial to preserve the integrity of the breed as it is meant to be.

    And conformation championships cost money...so that's more down the tube before a single pup is ever produced.

    So now they also have health tests on top of it. And no, I'm not talking about a vet listening to a heart under a stethoscope and declaring the dog sound. A vet is no more qualified to discover hidden genetic ailments in this manner than a doctor is determining your predispostion toward diabetes and cancer simply by doing the same to you. Hip certifications, eye certifciations, heart holter testing, burcellosis testing, are just a few tests that a breeding-possible dog should go through, depending on breed, before they are considered for parenthood. Some of the tests need to be done yearly, and NONE are cheap.

    I have a co-worker who breeds Burnese Mountain dogs. They are some of the most beautiful dogs you would ever see. All his breeding dogs have their champions in conformation, all are hip, eye, elbow, and heart certified. Some have their drafting championships. He is EXTREMELY picky who his dogs go to, knows each and every pup that he's produced by name and owner, and keeps in contact with each. He requires every person who purchases one of his pups to have them hip, elbow, eye, and heart certified as soon as they are old enough...even the pet-quality, speutered pups who are in homes as nothing more than loved companions...so he knows any and every single genetic problem possible that crops up in his lines.

    He and his wife both work full time. They make NO money on their dogs. They are doing it right.

    Any breeder that focuses on more than two breeds of dog is sacrificing quality for quantity. Breeding one breed of dog properly is a full time job. If your potential breeder has three or more breeds you're looking at a breeder that is sacrificing something for money. The dogs will likely not have their health certs, the breeder will not likely be able or even interested in keeping contact with purchasers to insure their pups never end up in a shelter or abused, the puppies will not be properly socialized (if it is a full time job to properly socialize a single litter of eight pups...imagine if you've got fifty or sixty on the ground?). The breeder is sacrificing SOMETHING in the name of production. So keep that in mind.

    Then there's my favorite point...the designer dogs.

    No, all dogs did not start out as mixed breeds. Way back in the dark dawn of time, all dogs looked the same...much like a dingo. Over time, people began to breed dogs with certain characteristics together to enhance those characteristics into a trait needed by man. A puppy born with a mutation for longer legs and faster running was bred to other puppies with a similar mutation to enhance the trait. Eventually dog breeds started to form. And eventually, breeds were cross-bred to create a more fitting breed...bulldogs and mastiffs were created to develop the bull-mastiff...a dog that had the tenacity of a bulldog and the size of a mastiff, to serve as a better guard dog.

    Our current designer dog phenomenon has nothing to do with this. It started nobly enough...with labradoodles. They were first bred to create a guide dog for the blind that was low-allergenic. Very swiftly, those doing the breeding discovered that it was a dead road...the results were too varied and it did not work as well as they had wished.

    Since then, labradoodles have changed little. They are still labs bred to poodles...a cross breed, no matter the name given them. Some breeders have managed to create f2 labradoodles...that is puppies born of two labradoodle parents, but they are little like their parents. It takes many generations of selective breeding to lock in a standard, and the AKC won't even look at a breed of dog unless it has several generations of same to same breeding and a working standard. There are dog breeds that have been around hundreds if not thousands of years who are still not recognized by the AKC. Any breeder who tells you their mixed breed designer 'breed' is on the cusp of being recognized is very probably either grossly misinformed...or downright lying.

    But at least the labradoodles had an initial purpose. Puggles, morkies, yorkiepoos, miniature boxers, bugs, shnoodles, and all the other designer breeds have no purpose save this...to make their breeders tons of money by slapping a cute name on a mixed breed dog.

    No, they're not hypoallergenic. There is literally no such thing as a hypoallergenic dog...unless you have a dog without skin. Most people allergic are allergic to shed skin dander. All things with skin shed dander. Some people may find certain breeds less irritating to their allergies. Some people can't live with ANY breed of dog whatsoever. There are low-allergenic dogs, but hypoallergenic is impossible and is basically a buzz-word to charge more money for something.

    No, they're not hybrids. Breeding a dog to a dog is not a hybrid...its a dog. Breeding a wolf to a dog, or a coyote to a dog, would make a hybrid. Breeding a horse to a zebra would make a hybrid...a horse to a horse just makes a horse.

    No, there is also no such thing as a non-shedding dog. All dogs shed. All things with fur or hair or feathers shed, even people. The difference between 'shedding' breeds and 'non-shedding' breeds is the coat. A labrador sheds, the fur goes on your floor. A poodle sheds, the hair falls out and simply tangles in the rest of its hair. This is why poodles must be brushed constantly...to remove the shed hair from the rest of its coat and to prevent tangling and matting that it can cause.

    All dogs shed. Even 'hairless' breeds have some fur or hair, and shed. It's simply a question of if you want the fur on the ground to be vaccuumed or in its coat to be brushed.

    All those wonderful designer dogs have been languishing and dying in shelters for years. My mother adopted a puggle from the shelter who was about to be euthanized...shortly before all the puggle hype. She calls her what she is...a pug-beagle mix. But stick her next to a 'puggle' that was purchased from a breeder for nearly $1000 and you can't tell the difference. So why do people shell out thousands of dollars for a mixed breed with a cutesy name when the same dog is sitting at a shelter, ready to die, for less than a hundred bucks?

    You got me.

    There's more that I could go on about but this is a discussion, not just a 'me' rant. So I open the floor now.

  • #2
    My family does some Paint Horse breeding although we're scaling way back. The market just isn't there right now and probably won't be for awhile as horses are a luxury item.
    Several broodies have already sold to riding homes. All of our broodmares are broke to ride. Babies all get age appropriate training. Everything is papered. A lot of them get shown.

    Horse breeders can be just as bad as crappy dog breeders. The auctions and dispersal sales going on all over the place are evidence of shitty breeders ditching their horses they can't feed anymore (although that little fact didn't stop a lot of them from breeding their mares back).

    Look on Craigslist or horse sale sites to see crappy stallions that have done nothing, look awful, and are available for you to breed your mare to just because they're a pretty color. Stupid, stupid stupid.

    Check out Fugly Horse of the Day's blog. She does an excellent job of ranting against the idiocy of byb's in today's market.

    Comment


    • #3
      That in fact is the reason why the Rottweiler breed, among others, is in such a state and why you get Rotties that attack people. Cuz stupid idiots breed father to daughter and mother to son, just to make money. My uncle and aunt have a Rottie; he's properly bred, not out of a puppy farm and is the most gentle creature you could ever encounter. Puppy farms however create monsters, and in doing so make people believe that all of the breed are monsters.

      I used to own a cute Welsh collie cross; I love mongrels and always have done. I really don't see the point of slapping a cutesy name on a mongrel just to make it acceptable to the designer dog crowd. F**k them. They don't know what they're missing by picking designer dogs over genuine, friendly, intelligent mongrels.
      "Oh wow, I can't believe how stupid I used to be and you still are."

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      • #4
        Line breeding isn't necessarily bad, it also can concentrate good characteristics. However in the hands of a non-discerning breeder who uses less than perfect stock, you get some crappy results.

        Hancock-bred horses are a good example of good line breeding. All of them have the same sort of look and the same smart brain, and they pass that look and brain on.

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        • #5
          LewisLegion, a round of applause to you from me!

          I breed rats. Okay, THEORETICALLY I breed rats. Almost two years after starting my rattery, I still haven't had a litter. Why?

          -Found a genetic problem in my nicest female's line and chose not to breed her.

          -Another female had a difficult pregnancy, chose not to rebreed her.

          -Refuse to get rats from inferior lines, so I drive several thousand miles to get stock, and nothing has been available that meets my standards at a time that I can afford to drive out there since having to retire my two good females to pet-only status.

          -One male has allergies, so I won't breed him until he's older to make sure that they stay mild and don't turn into chronic respiratory illness.

          -I don't want to adopt to just anyone; for that reason, my adopters need a reference from a vet and from someone who previously adopted to them (even if the animal adopted wasn't a rat, though rats are best). Meaning, most of them are out of state, and transport has to be arranged.


          If breeding RATS-- yes, RATS-- for show and pets is this hard and expensive, I KNOW anyone making money off breeding dogs is doing something wrong. It's just not possible to sit there and analyze pedigrees, COIs, show records, health records, on every family member for more than a few dogs before breeding. It's not possible to do all available health testing and still be sure you'll make a profit; some breeds need an MRI before breeding to screen for genetic brain defects, and that can run in the thousands already.

          The only people with any business breeding are those who consider it a hobby, but a hobby that they'll gladly spend lots of time and money to be the best at, and that if at any time they no longer can give it their all, will give that hobby up.

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          • #6
            As you can tell, its a subject I'm very passionate about. I just find it utterly irresponsible and incredibly frustrating what people will do to a living, breathing, feeling creature in the name of money.

            Why breed dogs...or any animal...that have the potential to some sort of disease or ailment that will cause them pain and suffering and a shorter lifespan simply for the sake of money? Yet millions of people do it every day. And its not even inbreeding but simply poor breeding.

            I get told that people breed one purebred dog to another of a different breed in order to eliminate the risks of certain genetic defects...the problem with this logic is you don't eliminate the risks...you just add more potential defects into the mix if you don't know what you're doing!

            For example...boxers are prone to cancer. Mastiffs to hip dysplasia. Breeding a boxer to a mastiff does not eliminate the tendancy to cancer or the risk of hip dysplasia...instead you get a dog at increased risk to BOTH now and for nothing than having a mixed breed dog you can slap a cute name on and charge some unsuspecting naive person a buttload of cash for. Who cares if five years down the road the dog is so crippled it can't walk, its owners dump it in a shelter because you refuse to take it back, or worse, they breed it and now there are twenty or thirty or a hundred more dogs in crippling pain and passing it on? That's the mindset that just irritates the snot out of me.

            And its not limited to the designer dogs. People who own a purebred dog registered by the AKC seem to think that's all that's necessary to make themselves a ton of cash. THE AKC IS SIMPLY A REGISTRATION! It doesn't tell you the health, constitution, well-being, or sometimes even breed of dog!

            Seriously...scams like this happen a lot:

            A woman owns two AKC registered labrador retrievers, a male and a female, both intact. A stray mutt jumps the fence and knocks up her lab female...but since the pups mostly LOOK like labradors she sends in the AKC registrations listing her registered male as the stud to the litter, even though he had nothing to do with it.

            Bam, she's selling AKC registered 'labs' that may grow up looking like anything, and have any temperment.

            AKC is just a piece of paper. What matters is health certifications, pedigrees, championship records, all in hand...and a breeder who is ethical and not out to exploit a living being soley for the sake of financial gain.

            I breed Gouldian finches. They are EXPENSIVE birds. There is no way I'm ever going to make money breeding them, especially since I sell them lower than most retail places (my birds go anywhere from 40 dollars to 80 dollars for normal colorations...normally retail and even some normal good breeders don't dream of selling them for less than 100 bucks).

            The reason I sell them lower is because it's not about the money. It's about the love of the birds, pride in what I produce, and the fact that I GRILL owners before they ever get a hand on one of my birds. I'm not just tossing them at anyone who's got a hundred bucks to slap down. I will never ever make money off my birds. But I love them and it is for the enjoyment of the hobby and seeing them grow from drab green little chicks into beautiful, outstandingly healthy birds that I do it.

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            • #7
              I think I remember someone registering their toaster as a Labrador Retriever with the AKC once, to prove the point that registration applications are not thoroughly checked!

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              • #8
                Dude, AKC doesn't use DNA to register? Most if not all of the legitimate horse registries do. We have to package in some mane hair with hair bulb intact when we send in for papers on a baby that is a product of AI.

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                • #9
                  No, they don't. I would love it if they did! It wouldn't solve the problem of people breeding pet quality purebred dogs together without bothering for health tests and such, but it would at least stop the 'toaster' registrations.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LewisLegion View Post
                    As you can tell, its a subject I'm very passionate about. I just find it utterly irresponsible and incredibly frustrating what people will do to a living, breathing, feeling creature in the name of money.

                    Why breed dogs...or any animal...that have the potential to some sort of disease or ailment that will cause them pain and suffering and a shorter lifespan simply for the sake of money? Yet millions of people do it every day. And its not even inbreeding but simply poor breeding.
                    and this totally sums up my feelings on "hybrid cats"(that sell for up to $2000 a piece),Bengal Cats (leopard cat and domestic cross), Chausie or Stone Cougars (jungle cat and domestic cat cross) and Savannah (Serval and domestic cat cross) and Safari Cats (Geoffroy Cat and domestic cat cross).

                    from big cat rescue:

                    "In a nutshell, it is an irresponsible thing to do and there is no redeeming reason to cross breed these cats nor to support those who do by buying one. It almost never works out for the individual cat and in the rare case that it does, the number of animals that had to suffer in order for this one rare cat to exist is staggering. "

                    Worth a read if you're thinking about buying one or know someone who is. I mentioned that site to someone that hinted at buying one on CS, and they had read the article in question, and "knew" a cat rescue site wasn't telling the truth, they were "over-dramatizing" they wanted one, because it was cool.
                    Last edited by BlaqueKatt; 08-02-2008, 06:49 AM.
                    Registered rider scenic shore 150 charity ride

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                    • #11
                      I actually have no problem with Bengal cats. My mother owns two, and I had one in the past. Nowadays, enough lines have been produced and made it past the foundation generations that actual leopard cat/domestic cat breedings are not necessary. Bengal to bengal breedings are commonplace.

                      I don't have so much of a problem of people domestitizing wild animals for pets (as, if that hadn't happened we wouldn't have any pets now at all...keep in mind, everything was wild at some point or another). I do have a problem with them doing it improperly for a quick buck.

                      Such as cramming crates full of exotic birds for the pet trade, having half of them die and decimating wild numbers in the name of a quick buck. That I have a problem with.

                      People taking big cat cubs from the wild and expecting to make them cuddly household pets without taking into consideration their basic needs...that I have a problem with (personally, I don't think big cats in general should be pets...they are far too dangerous and have far too much in the way of specialized needs...the average joe can't even dream of giving proper care and safety).

                      People who want to keep a wild animal JUST because they think it's 'cute' with no consideration towards its needs and habitat, I have a problem with.

                      People have domesticated many animals...animals you normally wouldn't even give a thought to. Some people still consider ferrets 'wild, exotic' pets even though they have been domesticated for THOUSANDS of years. Same with rabbits and rats...which is proved by how many people think they can just let their pet bunny or pet-store rat out into the wild and it will be able to take care of itself. These animals are domesticated creatures and have been for hundreds of years.

                      Do I necessarily think people should have started breeding Bengals...no, not particularly. I don't think they should have started breeding flat-faced Persians either. But almost every story I've heard about bengals is pretty much untrue. All the bengals I've been in contact with have been laid back, friendly, and healthy. Never have I seen it 'not work out' just because the cat was a bengal, each time it would have happened no matter the breed of cat involved.

                      No, there may be no redeeming reason to breed them...but there is no redeeming reason to breed any kind of cat if you really think about it. What redeeming reason do we have to breed persians? Ragdolls? Abyssinians? Hairless? Every use man can get out of a cat can be fulfilled by the typical American moggie. Mice catching, cuddly companion, everything.

                      So long as the breeders are doing so with health and well-being in mind, breeding for temperament, testing for genetic faults, doing it for the love and betterment of the breed and NOT money, I have no issue with them.


                      My comments on the article in particular:

                      They bite. Even in play, even if they love you, they bite and I have scars all over my hands to prove that their love nips will leave you bleeding. They want to eat your other pets and they don’t care if it’s a German shepherd, they are going to be constantly looking for a way to take the dog down. That is why many of them can’t run free on Easy Street. They pick fights with 500 pound tigers. I have even received reports from Florida's Game and Fish Commission of them stalking little old ladies and I have been called in to trap and remove them. This discarded pet now lives on Easy Street, but most are not this lucky.
                      My bengal was an F3. My mother has an F3. I can only speak for these two as all the other bengals I know are F5 or higher (and so considered domestic) but neither my nor my mother's cat were biters. Ever. Even in play. Even as young kittens. As soon as teeth touch skin in a mock bite they would lick. My mother owned a Maine Coon that would tear your hand off if you tried to touch it.

                      They also never wanted to eat my other pets...and I had everything from other cats, rabbits, rats, mice, birds, and dogs. My bengal actually let my puppy grab it by the ruff and drag him around the house...he would encourage it, even. And my puppy was HALF his size. However my black and white moggie gave four of my other cats stitches.

                      That was the only thing I really had issue with in the article. I abhor the idea of bengals or any other animal being used in the fur trade, and I abhor people who get any kind of animal without being prepared to care for it...but I have to take things with a grain of salt. Are these people who own bengals calling the rescue and trying to get rid of them because they are bengals or because they are active cats they are tired of, that are no longer cute, they got because of a fad, or because of any other excuse that would see that cat land in rescue or in a shelter even if it were of any other breed?

                      Anyone who gets a pet, of any kind or species, needs to be responsible and search out the temperment, needs, environment, and training that animal NEEDS. Doesn't matter if it's a common barnyard cat or a seven thousand dollar exotic bird. Anyone who isn't willing to do research and meet that animal's needs has no reason to own one. Period.

                      Anyone who breeds any kind of animal out of greed for a quick buck, without taking into consideration temperment, health, gene pool, and who isn't willing to absolutely ensure that anyone getting one of their puppies, kittens, hatchlings, chicks, foals or calves has DONE their research and knows what they're getting into in EVERY SINGLE CASE has no business breeding that animal. Period.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I hear you on the fancy rat issue; back when I worked in the pet centre, a woman came in with a male fancy in a tiny, cramped cage. It wasn't hers but the next door neighbours. They'd given their son the rat as a birthday present and he'd gotten bored with it so they were going to release the rat into the wild. At the time, it was the middle of fucking NOVEMBER; the fancy would have died in seconds. So the woman told them off and said she would rehome the rat. So I put the rat on the till and wrote a little story for the rat, renamed from "Ratty" to "Chuckie", along with a stress that anyone who wanted to adopt him had to buy him a bigger cage. Only took two weeks for adoption to take place.
                        "Oh wow, I can't believe how stupid I used to be and you still are."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LewisLegion View Post
                          I actually have no problem with Bengal cats. My mother owns two, and I had one in the past. Nowadays, enough lines have been produced and made it past the foundation generations that actual leopard cat/domestic cat breedings are not necessary. Bengal to bengal breedings are commonplace.

                          So many breeders claim that they only breed 4th and 5th generations, but don't seem to get the fact that you can't get a 4th generation without a lot of suffering in the first three. By the time a person breeds enough cats to get to the fourth generation they have created approximately 50 cats who will end up being slaughtered for coats or killed because of their behavior problems. I stand amazed at the number of people who just don't get this and how they manage to pretend that they are not the cause of the suffering if they purchase a fourth generation cat.


                          and if you read the letters from the people attempting to surrender them to the rescue is because most of them have IBS-which is inherent in the breed, a genetic fault which is being passed on through generations because there is no test for it. The animal suffers as a consequence.

                          I do have a problem with domesticating wild animals, as in order to get enough for the exotic pet trade wild populations are exploited. Most kinkajous that are imported as pets in the US were taken as babies (once the mothers were slaughtered) to be "domesticated". There are very few "domestic breeders" for them, they are directly taken from the wild so people like Paris Hilton can have a cute animal that no one else has.

                          from "julie's jungle"

                          Your new baby kinkajou will come to you still on its bottle, and will need its bottle about four times a day. I feed my baby kinkajous puppy esbilac with yogurt added. At 4 to 6 weeks you may start introducing various fruits and monkey biscuits. When you start supplementing its diet, you can slowly start weaning it from its bottle. You should wean somewhere between three and four months of age.(how is selling an animal before it's even weaned in any manner "ethical"?)

                          The Kinkajou's status in the wild is currently threatened, as Kinkajou numbers are falling as a result of deforestation and fur hunting. As a result, taking Kinkajous from the wild is highly discouraged, and Kinkajous in captivity are relatively rare.
                          Last edited by BlaqueKatt; 08-03-2008, 05:30 AM.
                          Registered rider scenic shore 150 charity ride

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                          • #14
                            So many breeders claim that they only breed 4th and 5th generations, but don't seem to get the fact that you can't get a 4th generation without a lot of suffering in the first three. By the time a person breeds enough cats to get to the fourth generation they have created approximately 50 cats who will end up being slaughtered for coats or killed because of their behavior problems. I stand amazed at the number of people who just don't get this and how they manage to pretend that they are not the cause of the suffering if they purchase a fourth generation cat.
                            Yes, the suffering happened, and it was atrocious. But what now do we do with these fourth generation and further cats? Cats already recognized as a domestic breed? Should my mother send her two rescues that are sweet as pie into a wildlife preserve simply because of their breed? Saying all bengals and all bengal breeders are bad is like saying all pitbulls and all pitbull breeders are bad. Nowadays it seems almost stereotypical that when someone has a aggressive cat outside hunting or going after people or just being generally unpleasant, to call it 'bengal' or 'part bengal' even if it has no provable bengal blood in its veins. Like any dog attack automatically becomes a 'pit bull attack'.

                            Yes, bad bengal breeders outweigh the good probably 100:1, but there ARE good breeders out there who are making the most out of a situation that started bad and breeding happy, healthy, vibrant, GOOD TEMPERED cats.

                            and if you read the letters from the people attempting to surrender them to the rescue is because most of them have IBS-which is inherent in the breed, a genetic fault which is being passed on through generations because there is no test for it. The animal suffers as a consequence.
                            Again, this is a case of irresponsible breeding...of breeders looking to make a quick buck and not knowing their lines...which I agree...animals suffer as a consequence. There are munchkins that suffer as a consequence of people not breeding with an eye toward keeping hips and front leg bone structure proper. There are persians that suffer because of people trying to breed shorter and shorter noses with no line consideration of soft palate length or genetic eye conditions. I don't like bad breeders of ANY kind of animal or breed, but to paint them all with a broad brush and pigeonhole a breed based on their bad apples is not responsible either.

                            The cats are here. Let's do our best to improve them and educate rather than just tossing them away.

                            On a personal note, I don't particularly agree with anyone who takes a wild animal out of the wild for the pet trade. I don't like the idea of anyone owning Kinkajous or lemurs or lions or tigers. However, I stand by my first assertion. Way back in the dawn of time there were probably people who didn't agree with priests luring wild cats into temples or farms to domesticate them for their own uses. Probably someone argued that dogs and wolves should be left wild and never would be of any use to mankind. Someone probably touted that ferrits, rabbits, and rats were simply vermin and would never be anything but. Surely someone in India was angry when people started training and domesticating elephants. Yet look where we are today? We would simply have no pets at all if someone didn't take something out of the wild. Though I do not think there is any reason at all to take any member of an endangered species out of the wild in an attempt to make it a pet...that is something I won't tolerate at all.

                            I also personally don't agree with having tarantulas or cockroaches as pets but I can't really tell people they can't have them. If someone told me I couldn't have my finches or my birds I'd be rather upset.

                            If a person is equipped to give an animal in their care everything it needs to live a long and healthy and HAPPY life, then I can say nothing against what kind of animal they can or cannot own. But I do insist if they are responsible for that animal and its care throughout its life, and that if they breed, they do so in a responsible manner focusing on health, well-being, genetic soundness and temperment and not the almighty dollar. I'm going to get just as pissed at someone breeding kinkajous irresponsibly as someone breeding labradors irresponsibly.

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                            • #15
                              Hah. I thought something completely different than intended when reading the thread topic. I thought it was about all those humans spewing out babies like a pez dispenser.

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