If you're not neurotypical, you're being rude?

[Saydrah]

I just checked back to this topic and have a few things to note about the suggestion that people use various disabilities as some sort of an excuse for bad behavior or a cop-out. I'm not the person to address this argument because I'm a neurotypical person (although I am sensitive to the pitfalls of communicating as an 'outsider' with a different communication style, mostly because I was raised in a very, um, unique family) but Amanda of Autistics.org is:

http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=520

Excerpts:

I have noticed a trend online, which is for people to say to others, “You are not autistic/AS, you are just using that as an excuse for poor social skills or an excuse to be a jerk.” I have an online friend who frequently gets this reaction, when she says something she considers just direct and someone else finds it insulting and flames her, and she tries to explain, only to get that response. Indeed, things like “Asperger’s is just an excuse to be socially inept” or “people who use Asperger’s as an excuse” have become givens in some parts of the Internet community. It is even accepted (with little to no apparent evidence) by some autistic people as fact.

This is pretty similar to my OP (and was part of the inspiration for it, as I've been mulling over this trend since reading the linked post months ago)

It goes on with detailed explanations, which anyone not familiar with the autism spectra should really take some time to read as they explain quite a lot of the things that puzzle neurotypicals about Autism and related conditions. Then Amanda reaches this conclusion:

So then there’s this sort of urban legend, that the Internet is filled with hordes of jerks who use autism as an excuse to be jerks. And the moment an autistic person shows up using autism as an explanation of something about themselves, then that stereotype is thrown in their face.

And autistic people ourselves have certain choices of how to respond to that.

We can say, “Yes, that stereotype is true. But the people who fit it, make the rest of us look bad, make it worse for the rest of us by confirming it, etc.”

We can just watch it happen.

Or we can say, “Hey hold on a minute, that’s a stereotype, and a harmful one at that. An explanation isn’t an excuse. We do have this particular kind of trouble with language, or engaging in typical interactions, and we are going to make mistakes that can be explained by being autistic.”

I’m sure there are other things too.

But every time an autistic person uses the “They make the rest of us look bad” thing, they’re falling into the same trap as women who direct their anger at being considered irrational, at particularly irrational women, instead of at the source of the problem. They blame those who fit, or seem to fit, the stereotype, for its existence and continuance, even though that’s not the source of negative stereotypes about people.

And they then continue it.

And people then continue to use it against autistic people.

In the end, this stereotype itself looks to me like an example of something that is frequently as an excuse in order to be a jerk… towards autistic people.

(emphasis mine)

I think the people making excuses for bad behavior in many such situations are NOT the autistic people. For example, let's take a hypothetical situation (since none of us were there in the real situation) similar to the recent incident where a parent with autistic children was removed from an airplane. I'll make up a conversation:

Kid: "AHH! AHH!"

Flight Attendant: "Ma'am, you need to quiet your child. He's been screaming for several minutes."

Mom: "He's Autistic. I'm sorry. I'm trying to control his behavior, but he's very overstimulated right now and reacting to stress."

Flight Attendant: "He needs to be quiet, or you will not be able to fly with us today. I've been told by the pilot to ask you to quiet your son."

Kid: "AHH! AHH!" (starts banging head on seat in front of him)

Mother: "His condition causes him to use repetitive behaviors like headbanging and screaming when he is upset. Please give me some space and I am sure he will be able to fly calmly once I can get him to relax."

Flight Attendant: "You've got five minutes."

Five minutes later, the kid and parent are booted, as he is still screaming and headbanging.

Now, on first glance, that kid's behavior is clearly inappropriate for an airplane, and disruptive for other passengers. However, had the focus been on arranging things so that child could fly comfortably, perhaps the outcome would have been different-- or the mother could have chosen on her own not to fly with the child. Stims that are self-injurious, like headbanging (from what I understand from reading various blogs and books) often happen when the person with Autism is reacting to a stressor that they are unable to fully respond to: In this case, the crowded flight, and then the flight attendant arguing with the mother. The frustration of being under stress and struggling to communicate his needs could easily set the child off into self-injurious behavior.

Maybe the flight attendant could have gently informed other passengers that the child has autism and asked them to please keep quiet nearby and be patient until the mother was able to calm her son, or, if there was space on the plane, offered to move the child to an area where there would not be a person in the seat in front of him to be disturbed by the headbanging until he calms down. Perhaps the flight attendant could draw a curtain over the attendant seating area and allow the mother to take her son there briefly to calm down. Maybe other parents on the plane could take the opportunity to educate their own children about Autism and teach them to treat those with differences with understanding and patience.

I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't presume anyone who is rude has a neurological condition, but perhaps one also shouldn't presume anyone who communicates differently is rude. I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who's really being nasty and mean-spirited, someone who is obviously mentally ill, and someone who seems to be saying or doing inappropriate things but is really just not aware that they are upsetting someone, and is embarrassed, sad, confused, or angry to find out that their behavior has caused distress. In the third category, perhaps some leeway could be given.

I've continued to think about this issue personally- it IS a hard one, and it's not always easy to make sure not to give excessive slack to someone who's just walking all over you, but at the same time not presume someone is being rude or misbehaving when you are really just seeing a manifestation of a difference in the way that person communicates, and it's more like trying to communicate with someone who only speaks French than having someone intentionally being rude to you. Talking to someone who speaks only French, and you speak only English, is frustrating, and takes you way outside your comfort zone-- but they didn't grow up speaking only French just so they could someday meet you and frustrate you by trying to communicate with you any more than you grew up speaking English just to frustrate them.

One thing I'm doing with Autie/Aspie friends since this post is asking questions like, "Is there an acceptable way for me to communicate to you that I would no longer like to discuss a topic because the direction the conversation has taken is upsetting me?" Mostly the response is, "Just tell me it's time to change the subject." If someone says there's absolutely no way to tell them their actions or words are hurting you, they're probably a jerk-- but if you don't take the time to ask someone who seems not to understand social cues if there is a better way for you to communicate those feelings, and simply presume they are being intentionally rude, you're probably the jerk.

[Dreamstalker]

Maybe the flight attendant could have gently informed other passengers that the child has autism and asked them to please keep quiet nearby and be patient until the mother was able to calm her son, or, if there was space on the plane, offered to move the child to an area where there would not be a person in the seat in front of him to be disturbed by the headbanging until he calms down.

In an ideal situation where the plane is not full, way ahead of schedule, and some people weren't selfish twits, this would be possible. The reality of overcrowded planes, tight-if-not-impossible connections and stressed passengers and crew due to the above says different. Guardians of autistic spectrum kids need to know what will set them off and avoid that unless they are prepared to and capable of dealing with it (which includes explaining to both neurotypicals and the child themselves what is happening). Explaining sometimes takes time and assumes that the target is paying attention (which sadly, most don't or can't).

Do I think this could change? Maybe, maybe not; it's hard to say without empirical evidence.

[Seshat]

I agree with both sides of this - in different ways.

I'm probably not neurotypical. Okay, I'm definitely not in some ways, but we're talking about the social-nuance-sensitivity way. I don't seem to be neurotypical there, but have never been diagnosed.

That's my problem. It's my responsibility to attempt to overcome the issue, it's my responsibility to use my advantages and learn intellectually the things other people seem to just know. And I do that. And I try to interact with people 'normally'.

However. It is my understanding that it's harder to catch social nuance by intellectualising it than by the neurotypical's way of doing it. And I've never found anyone teaching Aspie kids to intellectualise social nuance, so each kid has to invent it themselves.
That's like expecting paraplegics to invent wheelchairs, without even telling them a wheelchair is possible.
(Hmm. There's a project for me. It'd certainly be a worthwhile one.)


So let's take this poor Aspie or whatever. The person is doing a great job of passing as neurotypical. Worked very hard at it, most folks accept him, he's holding down a job and a reasonable circle of friends.
He makes a mistake. Shit. Talks too directly, too much what feels 'normal' to him, rather than 'fake'. (And believe me, small talk and general social lubricant feels awfully 'fake' to me.)
He apologises. The other person refuses to accept it, rants and raves and screams at him about 'how dare you talk to me like that'.

What is the poor Aspie to do? The chances of him actually understanding what he did wrong, without the other person being willing to calmly and logically explain, are VERY slim.
He doesn't want to lie, either. Yes, he is sorry he made a mistake. Yes, he would LIKE to avoid repeating the mistake. No, 'you should know what you did!' is not helpful - and no, he DOESN'T know what he did.

And yeah, I've been that Aspie*, far too many times.
* more accurately, 'probable aspie'.


So in my opinion, the Aspie or otherwise non-neurotypical has a responsibility. Their responsibility is to try. To learn social nuance, to accept that they have to use intellect as their social wheelchair.

But the neurotypicals have a responsibility too. Their responsibility is to accept that not everyone is neurotypical. Their responsibility is to accept honest apology, and to accept that gee, maybe 'you should know what you did!' is not helpful.
I guess you can sum it up as 'if the neurotypical wants the aspie to be a mature, thoughtful, human being, the neurotypical should be one too'.

[Boozy]

He makes a mistake. Shit. Talks too directly, too much what feels 'normal' to him, rather than 'fake'. (And believe me, small talk and general social lubricant feels awfully 'fake' to me.)

Small talk sounds fake to everyone. That's less about being neurotypical and more about one's personal tolerance level for bullshit.

Intelligent people will naturally have less tolerance because they'd rather be discussing ideas than weather and people.

[Lace Neil Singer]

That's been me, too. I tend to feel as tho I'm acting a part in a play whenever I socialise with people I don't know very well; my friends know me and understand me, so altho I do obviously have to be nice, I can be myself.

[Seshat]

Then why do people do the whole 'small talk' thing? I don't understand it. Never have.

[the_std]

Well, because a lot of people are nervous and find it hard to come right out and talk about whatever it is they want to talk about.

I know I can be like that, beating around the bush. When I'm nervous, I'm always on-the-verge-of-puking nervous because I have an anxiety disorder. And in my speech, it manifests in dancing around the subject, stuttering and freezing up. So small talk helps me reduce my level of anxiety and get a feel for the situation before getting to the main point, making me more eloquent and able to make myself clear.

[Boozy]

Because it's the only way we can connect with strangers without offending them. If you want to interact with people, but you know nothing about them, you stick to safe topics.

Discussing the weather is especially good, because it's a quick way to establish a bond. Saying "How about this rain?" is like saying, "I know nothing about your life, your beliefs, your values...but it doesn't matter, because when we step outside, it rains equally on both of us. So we're all in this together."

[ArenaBoy]

Whahay! Thread necrophilia.

First off, I have ADHD. Took me a long time to come to grips with it. I was diagnosed with it when I was four. Yes, I take medication for it. My school board generally treated me like crap thinking I was going to turn into the stereotype autistic person. Parents weren't having any of it and neither were a few teachers. End result being that I work for a newspaper, speak French and Japanese, and am a very able guitar player. I consider that as an Eff You to the district.

Second:

Orginally Posted by Saydrah:
So, I'm making more of a committment to stop when I'm offended and think about whether or not the person who upset me meant to cause me offense. And I'm eliminating the phrase, "You're acting/communicating/behaving inappropriately" from my vocabulary, except with small children whose behavior is my responsibility at the time, after hearing many of my non-NT friends' frustrations with that specific characterization of their behavior. Instead, I'll ask questions-- "Did you mean that comment as a sexual innuendo?" "Were you intending to characterize me as less intelligent than yourself?" "Did you know that your voice seems very loud to me right now?"

This is a big frustration for me at times. It's easy to make presumptions that someone is being rude but with everybody, NT or not things get misconstrued easily.

My biggest frustration though, is in relationships. Yes I do tell someone I'm dating that I have ADHD because IMO it makes things easier. What I do follow it up with this concept being mentioned numerously:

Don't treat me like a disorder. I'm a normal being like everyone else who just gets distracted very easily.

Gets on my nerves when I'm regarded like that. I'm a human being, not a wild animal.

[Dreamstalker]

He makes a mistake. Shit. Talks too directly, too much what feels 'normal' to him, rather than 'fake'.

He apologises. The other person refuses to accept it, rants and raves and screams

The chances of him actually understanding what he did wrong, without the other person being willing to calmly and logically explain, are VERY slim.
He doesn't want to lie, either. Yes, he is sorry he made a mistake. Yes, he would LIKE to avoid repeating the mistake. No, 'you should know what you did!' is not helpful - and no, he DOESN'T know what he did.

And this is more or less what happened with my last job (the guy was also a bit of a jerk, which may have had something to do with it). I have absolutely no idea what led up to my being fired and wasn't given a chance to defend or explain myself. I have a feeling that what actually happened was a misinterpretation on his part and it could have been resolved (he had One Way of doing things and apparently did not like any perceived change).

[Flyndaran]

When someone is unintentially rude, reasonable people accept and understand legititmate apologies.
Not accepting them has nothing to do with mental disabilities. It has to do with the supposed victims of rudeness not being adult. I'm sure that inability on their parts has effects for everyone, not just we emotional/mental/social handicapped.

(I have severe social phobia and generalized anxiety disorders) I'm not not neurotypical. I have a disorder, a handicap, a problem.
Calling it anything else is just silly.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Just noticed this one, ha.

I've been fortunate enough that my parents and other people have never hesitated to explain to me what things we do and do not do in certain situations. However, there's still plenty of times where I have to do something I'm not sure about. (If you're going to ask me whether or not something looks good on you and you don't want an honest answer, for the love of God, say something like "I love how this looks on me" first so I know what you're fishing for.)

Stuff like this is the reason I pre-empt many of my statements by saying something to the effect of "I'm Aspie and I'm not trying to say something wrong. Please tell me if I shouldn't say this or say it this way." And hopefully people will take me at that and if I say something rude, they will say "You shouldn't say that because ___." And I can file that away in my little rolodex of conversation trinkets.

Now if I could just wear a sign that says "Believe it or not, these headphones are therapeutic, so don't think I'm just an antisocial bitch", then I wouldn't have any issues anymore...

[Flyndaran]

I would hate social games even if my phobia and inexperience didn't make me incompetent at them.
My life mate knows not to ask questions she doesn't want real answers to and not to vaguely hint at anything. Either state your feelings clearly or don't get upset when I miss your intent.
Over time I have gotten better at recognizing expressions and subtler body language, but it isn't instinctive by a long shot.

"Fortunately", she has problems of over empathizing. I'm a welcome relief; by not reacting emotionally to minor environmental input she can relax with me far more than anyone else.

[Dreamstalker]

I'm fairly "proficient" at social games (I can thank The Twit for that, probably the only useful thing she ever did), but still don't get them.

Near the end of my last real relationship, the ex would bait me and then get mad if I didn't react the way he wanted (usually this also involved my words getting twisted around), accusing me of being the game-player.

[Seshat]

Well, because a lot of people are nervous and find it hard to come right out and talk about whatever it is they want to talk about.

Because it's the only way we can connect with strangers without offending them. If you want to interact with people, but you know nothing about them, you stick to safe topics.

Discussing the weather is especially good, because it's a quick way to establish a bond. Saying "How about this rain?" is like saying, "I know nothing about your life, your beliefs, your values...but it doesn't matter, because when we step outside, it rains equally on both of us. So we're all in this together."

OooOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH!

Thank you, both of you, for your clear and vivid description of the purpose of small talk.

You just made it make sense to me. Now I think I can learn to be successful at it.