Autism/Aspergers is just an excuse!

[NorthernZel]

I'd think a lot of it would be the fuzzy edge of such diagnoses. What solid, easily-recognizable difference is there between someone who is just barely within Asperger's (or ADD, for that matter) and someone who just barely isn't?

That IS hard to recognize unless one has studied about it or/and is related to someone with ASD. For instance, Lil Zel is considered "high-functioning" so unless he has a meltdown, people outside our networks would see him as a shy and quirky boy with a tendency to run in circles when he's stressed. (And the "run in circles" thing would probably be translated to "bad behaviour" by some.)

[Nekojin]

There are all sorts of people out there. People with Asperger's/autism/add/adhd who try to hide it. People who don't have any of those and use it as an excuse for their abhorrent behavior. And even people with one of the above who use it as an excuse to act out above and beyond their legitimate problems.

The last group takes special handling, above and beyond - they've been given a sort of entitlement mentality, where they know they're different, and expect that everyone else will conform and adapt to their needs; if you don't, they act as though there's something wrong with you for not accepting their "special" condition and adapting. In other words, they use it as an excuse to not try to overcome their condition.

I'm presently the head of the Video Gaming department of a regional gaming convention; we run three conventions a year. As the Video Gaming department, we are the de facto "babysitting service" (even though we have disclaimers to the contrary), and we see a LOT of children who spend the entire convention in the Video Gaming room. There are several who have special needs of one stripe or another:

* One kid who is pretty good about everything, but when he's not actively doing something, he'll frequently stand in one place, shuffling his feet back and forth.
* One kid who expects to be the center of attention - when playing a co-op game, he'll gleefully set about interfering with the other players (such as tearing down or blowing up other players' buildings in Minecraft, or killing other players), but gets loud and very upset when they do it to him.
* One guy (from over a decade ago) who had a distinct problem that we think was never diagnosed - he frequently rebooted computers when he was losing, despite being told clearly NOT to reboot the computers, and in one incident he kicked over a computer because he was upset about dying. This one in particular is disturbing; Andara and I saw him begging for food at a mall's restaurant row a few years back. I honestly think that he needed medication, and wasn't ever diagnosed or treated.

Most of the kids are, well, kids. A little rambunctious because they're excited - they're seeing friends that they only get to see three times a year, playing games with them, and so on. That's just kids being kids. But yes, there are some Special Needs kids in the mix.

Edit: It just occurred to me that all three of the kids in question have thick, thick glasses with high prescriptions. Is is possible that there's a link there?

[Andara Bledin]

One thing that can be seen in high-functioning autistics, particularly those with Asperger's, is a tendency to hyper-focus on a narrow topic to a potentially self-destructive degree. It's a very "miss the forest for the trees" type of issue.

In debate structure, this can be seen when a person will attack a very specific part of a position while appearing to completely miss the point of the argument that it was part of. This can be hard to separate from people who just have bad debate habits, however.

Anyway, I found the profile of the woman I mentioned earlier. It can be very hard to follow, but a lot of her difficulties lie in her inability to deal with alternate meanings for various words, such as her accusing someone who was talking about a "professional relationship" of trying to be her boyfriend. Here is a collection of just the non-Positive comments. It's worth noting that most of her comments left were just fine and that her decision to leave eBay was tied primarily to their upcoming requirement to use PayPal.

^-.-^

[Ginger Tea]

Thats the main trait he had that I had issues with (when he wasn't swearing up a storm) as he was asking for help on X but the moment someone posted that he didn't like (even if he said nothing nasty it was cos he once did) my question and all others remained unanswered, I had no idea if it was him just being a tosser or if his claims of ADD/ADHD were actually missdiagnosed and they should look into Aspergers or something along those lines.

If the forum was more activly moderated, his threads would be shaved down into a 5 post thread of question clarification answer, instead it was question, clarification, post with snark, bile, bile, bile, with a smattering of egging on, requests of clarification, bile, bile, bile, request for clarification, bile, bile, bile, fuck this hope you find it out on your own.

I gave up trying to find out if he was unwilling or unable to back away from the text input box, he would have gotten further if he was willing to actually ignore posts instead of posting "I'm ignoring you." every time someone on his list posted, hell even if they actually gave the answers needed.

So after being here for a while, knowing there are posters here with some degree, I don't know if he genuinly is an the spectrum just at a different end than you may be or if he just was a tool hiding behind a "diagnosis", but the focus issue he had, big time, so maybe there is a part that has no brain-keyboard filter and prone to rage posting.

[Andara Bledin]

... so maybe there is a part that has no brain-keyboard filter and prone to rage posting.

Comment filtering is also one of the more common traits of those with Asperger's. Things that most reasonable people would just think, a full Aspie will often just blurt out without any inkling that it might be taken in a manner other than intended (with the intention being completely at odds with how most people would take it). This is also commonly tied in with an inability to properly moderate tone and/or volume.

^-.-^

[NorthernZel]

Concurring with Andara here.

Actually, inspired from this discussion, I gave Lil Zel the task of "counting sheep" at bedtime only using his "inner voice". Half an hour later: "MOM! I've gotten to count to 200 and now I'm confused!" (And I did hear him count aloud but under his breath)

EDIT: Actually, today in the news it was claimed that ABB (the notorious bigot responsible for the Utøya killings in Norway last year) may suffer from Aspergers combined with Tourettes. I say it's bollocks, but what's your thoughts?

[Andara Bledin]

He's a highly-intelligent, potentially sociopathic, cultural zealot. If he has any condition, it's not particularly significant or relevant. He even mentions the coping mechanisms he trained himself with in order to distance himself, personally, from what he did during his "mission." The comment about his "smiling" due to Tourette's is asinine. He's smiling because he's getting his "day in court." The killing spree was part of his need to spread his manifesto. That people are listening to him and that he's big news is playing directly into his goals. >_<

I do have to wonder why we don't just brain scan the guy. That would determine whether he's really as "dispassionate" as people think or if he's just really good at suppressing his reactions. Aspies' brains have structural differences to non-Aspies and their emotional responses are notably different.

It's interesting to note that since at least some expressions of Asperger's appears to be a wiring issue caused in vitro, it is something that can conceivably be trained around with the right techniques. Issues that are related to chemistry balance, however, are more likely to require medication to adjust.

^-.-^

[Peppergirl]

In debate structure, this can be seen when a person will attack a very specific part of a position while appearing to completely miss the point of the argument that it was part of. This can be hard to separate from people who just have bad debate habits, however.

That's very interesting, now that you mention it. I've noticed a few people here who will just pick and pick and pick at a minor point and argue it to death, but completely miss the larger point (like you said above).

Now I find myself wondering if they are Aspies or simply (as you again said) poor debaters.

Edited to add: I'm not a great debater myself - so just to be clear, I'm not insulting anyone specifically with my comment.

[Nekojin]

Here are a few articles about Breivik.

Short version: He's not autistic, he's sociopathic. One psychologist has declared that Breivik has narcissistic personality disorder (considered a type of deviant personality), which means that he's not insane, just severely twisted. He's got a completely sideways view of the world, where he's some knight of justice, meting out punishment to the wicked. He pled not guilty because he was acting in self-defense when he was asked for his plea at his arraignment for the massacre.

He's just a sicko who desires to make the world, and especially other people, live (or die) to serve his ends.

[HYHYBT]

I've noticed a few people here who will just pick and pick and pick at a minor point and argue it to death, but completely miss the larger point (like you said above).

Sometimes, a minor point is nonetheless an interesting one, even revelatory, once explored. And sometimes it's swept off as minor when the fact that it doesn't stand up (or at least, doesn't as presented and whoever presented it won't support it) when, without it, the larger argument doesn't work.

[Peppergirl]

Sometimes, a minor point is nonetheless an interesting one, even revelatory, once explored. And sometimes it's swept off as minor when the fact that it doesn't stand up (or at least, doesn't as presented and whoever presented it won't support it) when, without it, the larger argument doesn't work.

I agree with this, but it's not what I meant. I don't think I expressed myself well in this regard.

[BlaqueKatt]

Issues that are related to chemistry balance, however, are more likely to require medication to adjust.

Generally not he best treatment, some autistics/aspies have a combo of "different wiring/different brain chemistry", and the medications to assist neurotypical chemistry imbalances can really screw up an autist/aspie. I know this from personal experience(I have psychotic breaks when put on antidepressants, and have severe PMDD when on hormonal birth control), I was diagnosed after my son was, they interviewed my mother to assist with the diagnosis, because some of the diagnostic criteria have to be present prior to age 2 for an accurate diagnosis. Which is why I find some claims of ASD/aspie to be a bit suspect.....

And sadly for some "parents" the autism/aspie diagnosis causes guilt, so they overindulge the child(which is a huge disservice, bordering on abuse IMHO), and don't bother with teaching/discipline thus creating the "it's an excuse for bad behavior" thing.

What many people don't think about is being a jerk and having a medical diagnosis aren't mutually exclusive, they're like any other member of society, a medical diagnosis has nothing to do with someone's personality for the most part*, chances are the person being a jerk is going to look for any excuse rather than admit they may just be a jerk. IT's similar to people jumping to the conclusion that any female in a bad mood must be "on the rag", nope maybe she's just in a foul mood, or maybe she just is that way all the time.

*it's a fine line, being blunt/brutally honest/lacking "brain-to-mouth filter" =/= being a jerk, just as no=/=rude.

[Andara Bledin]

My brother likely has a condition that makes it so that he can't always control his temper. He's also an asshole. I haven't told him that he probably has this issue because he is precisely the sort of person who would milk it for all its worth and use it as a crutch, rather than use the information to understand his issues and work to overcome it.

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

I've known people who've used it as an excuse. Or, rather, their parents used it as an excuse, which was even worse.

These two evidently went home and either were crying, or claimed another one of the students made them cry (If he MADE them cry, they must be capable of invisible, inaudible, tearless sobbing since I pretty much had eyes-on all day).

They'd been pretty much continuously teasing him, and if there was any bad behavior on his part, it was purely in reaction to these kids.

However, there mother came in on the last day and said that he'd been bullying them. Both Mr. G (the camp head) and I replied that they had at LEAST as much a part in it as he did, and listed situations where they'd been either picking on (like always throwing the ball at him when we played Swedish Dodgeball/Crackabout, and standing near him so they could peg him whenever he stood up) or outright insulting him. The woman responded that they had Asperger's and we needed to understand that.

That also blew my mind, because... Look, half the people at the camp, and ALL the counselors, myself included, are somewhere on the spectrum. It doesn't cause you to be a bully.

[HYHYBT]

What many people don't think about is being a jerk and having a medical diagnosis aren't mutually exclusive, they're like any other member of society, a medical diagnosis has nothing to do with someone's personality for the most part*, chances are the person being a jerk is going to look for any excuse rather than admit they may just be a jerk. IT's similar to people jumping to the conclusion that any female in a bad mood must be "on the rag", nope maybe she's just in a foul mood, or maybe she just is that way all the time.

It's a hard separation to make. How do you know what is caused by their condition and what is just their being a jerk?

This reminds me of my brother's first wife. She isn't, so far as I know, autistic or anything like that. She's Korean. Not Korean-American, but actual born-and-raised-in-South-Korea Korean. And that muddied things a lot; whenever alarm bells went off about things she said or did that seemed off, we put it down to cultural differences. I'll just say it turned out otherwise.