You're not Patriotic! You don't love your country!

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

A few responses to people who seem to like to question my apparent lack of "patriotism":

- No I do not have an American flag in my yard. It's not that I don't own a flag, I do, I just do not have an adequate pole to display it on. Look around this neighborhood, plenty of people don't have flags up. I do have several miniature flags on display in my home as well as a memorial flag from my wife's grandfather who served in the military.

- No, I don't know all the words to "America the Beautiful" I do know the Star Spangled Banner and Pledge of Allegiance

- It is my RIGHT to NOT put my hand over my heart for the Pledge of Allegiance. You see, I may be living in America right now but I was not born here nor am I a U.S. citizen at this time. Therefore I am under no obligation to Pledge anything to this country. I choose to stand and be quiet and respectful during the pledge.

- I do own a couple of weapons, I do not own an arsenal. I do not believe the level of one's patriotism can be measured by how many guns he owns.

- I do not feel I am required to hate/despise the President to prove I love this country. Does this not sound a little backwards to anyone else?

- I have NEVER supported the Iraq War and I think Afghanistan should have been over years ago. I DO however, support the men and women who are on the ground there doing the fighting.

- People of all different faiths and walks of life have a right to be in America. I do not think it patriotic to fear certain religious and ethnic groups.

[HYHYBT]

I love my country, but find the whole notion of a Pledge of Allegiance (especially to a piece of cloth) to be at best silly and at worst dangerous.

[Nekojin]

A Pledge of Allegiance is intended to inculate blind patriotism into the pledge-speakers. Making children recite it daily should be treated as little better than attempted brainwashing.

A government should not have to use social engineering to "make" people love it unconditionally. People should love their country because of what it is, what it does for its people, and how it treats its neighbors. If a country is shoveling its wealth into the pockets of the wealthy and connected as fast as it can manage, it should expect and deserve little more than disdain and dissent, and possibly outright revolution over such matters.

[Andara Bledin]

A few responses to people who seem to like to question my apparent lack of "patriotism":

It's amazing just how ignorant the shouty flag-wavers can be.

I don't own a flag, don't know the words to those two songs, won't even stand for the pledge unless I'm showing respect for someone else, etc, etc.

It's such a shame that the people who are most vocal about their own "patriotism" have no idea what it really means to have and be able to exercise the rights granted by our Constitution and Amendments.

^-.-^

[Rageaholic]

Notice how the most "patriotic" people are the ones who are the most authoritarian? They are the ones who get on their high horse about people not supporting the troops, defend police brutality, defend anything that screws over the people, and basically hating anyone who doesn't fit their rigid standard, all while talking about how great it is to live in a "free" country!

Their hypocrisy astounds me.

[daleduke17]

Making children recite it daily should be treated as little better than attempted brainwashing.

That is a bunch of garbage. How is it brainwashing?

I take it you hate the fact that most (if not all) sporting events start off with the National Anthem, right?

[fireheart17]

That is a bunch of garbage. How is it brainwashing?

I take it you hate the fact that most (if not all) sporting events start off with the National Anthem, right?

Pledge of Allegiance and the National Anthem are two different things.

The national anthem, everyone is taught that from a young age and you show respect to the country by singing/playing it. Even if you don't know the words entirely, just mouthing them is enough. The anthem doesn't put emphasis on God or any other religions at all and is inclusive of all people, regardless of their background. (a quick wiki search shows that the anthem only makes one reference to "Heav'n" which could be taken as nonreligious)

On the other hand, the Pledge seems to be nothing more than idol worship. It can be interpreted as a prayer (in its current form anyway, due to the words "Under God") and seems to be a pretty poor way to show patriotism. There are plenty of times for people to show that, you do not need to show your patriotism every damn day of the week.

[daleduke17]

Pledge of Allegiance and the National Anthem are two different things.

The national anthem, everyone is taught that from a young age and you show respect to the country by singing/playing it. Even if you don't know the words entirely, just mouthing them is enough. The anthem doesn't put emphasis on God or any other religions at all and is inclusive of all people, regardless of their background. (a quick wiki search shows that the anthem only makes one reference to "Heav'n" which could be taken as nonreligious)

On the other hand, the Pledge seems to be nothing more than idol worship. It can be interpreted as a prayer (in its current form anyway, due to the words "Under God") and seems to be a pretty poor way to show patriotism. There are plenty of times for people to show that, you do not need to show your patriotism every damn day of the week.

I agree that you do not have to show your patriotism every day of the week, but, saying the pledge is ~1 minute out of the day. You are not pledging to the flag (per se), but for the country as a whole ("and the republic for which it stands"). The pledge is saying nothing more than "we're going to work together to keep our country great".

I had to say the Pledge everyday I was in grade school... I didn't turn out as part of a brainswashed mass.

If the school wants kids to say the Pledge, that is their right. If a parent wants to piss and moan over it, let them. They better be ready to home school their child if they want to make the curriculum.

[AdminAssistant]

Actually, there has been a movement to replace "The Star Spangled Banner" with "My Country Tis of Thee" or "America the Beautiful." Some of the later verses of "The Star Spangled Banner" say a number of very not-nice things about the British. (Remember it was written during the War of 1812.)

I don't have a huge problem with saying the Pledge at school as long as kids are allowed to sit out if they wish. No reason to force a child to say a pledge when they don't even understand the meaning of the words.

[fireheart17]

Actually, there has been a movement to replace "The Star Spangled Banner" with "My Country Tis of Thee" or "America the Beautiful." Some of the later verses of "The Star Spangled Banner" say a number of very not-nice things about the British. (Remember it was written during the War of 1812.)

There's been some arguments about changing the Australian national anthem for the same reasons. Except that only the first two verses are usually sung (there's several verses) and at school assemblies, only the first verse. (or someone will sing/play it and everyone else has to listen.

One of the suggestions that has cropped up was Waltzing Matilda. Now, while I like the song as much as anyone, I fail to see how a bushranger who commits suicide represents our nation

[Rageaholic]

If the school wants kids to say the Pledge, that is their right. If a parent wants to piss and moan over it, let them. They better be ready to home school their child if they want to make the curriculum.

I would agree that the school has the right to have pledges, but I think kids should have the right to refuse to say the pledge. It's nice to have the right to do something, but it's also nice to have the right to say no.

[Gravekeeper]

The only problem with that is we know exactly which kids would get the shit beat out of them at lunch time every day for the rest of their school life.

You shouldn't have to pledge allegiance to something until you're old enough to understand wtf it even means and judging by how frothing a lot of "Patriotic" Americans get, its certainly brainwashing on some level.

Also, most self proclaimed "Patriotic" Americans mistake jingoism for patriotism. -.-

[smileyeagle1021]

I agree that you do not have to show your patriotism every day of the week, but, saying the pledge is ~1 minute out of the day. You are not pledging to the flag (per se), but for the country as a whole ("and the republic for which it stands"). The pledge is saying nothing more than "we're going to work together to keep our country great".

The problem is that word "and"... the exact words are "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands"... you are pledging allegiance to both. And as far as we're working together to keep our country great, words are cheap, saying words means nothing. Anyone can say they support liberty and justice for all, yet I see very few people willing to put themselves on the line to ensure that for others, just look at how much people balk at doing jury duty. I'd say it is much more patriotic to go out into your community and volunteer and donate and do things that will make this country great rather than spend less than a minute reciting an oath to a piece of fabric.

[draco664]

One of the suggestions that has cropped up was Waltzing Matilda. Now, while I like the song as much as anyone, I fail to see how a bushranger who commits suicide represents our nation

He's not a bushranger! He's a sheep-rustler!

And anyway, it's not really representative any more. These days, the cops would arrest the original owner of the sheep for letting it graze within the proscribed distance from a non-permanent watering hole, and pat the rustler on the head and let him go because he has obviously had a hard upbringing and that excuses his actions.

[TheHuckster]

And as far as we're working together to keep our country great, words are cheap, saying words means nothing. Anyone can say they support liberty and justice for all, yet I see very few people willing to put themselves on the line to ensure that for others, just look at how much people balk at doing jury duty. I'd say it is much more patriotic to go out into your community and volunteer and donate and do things that will make this country great rather than spend less than a minute reciting an oath to a piece of fabric.

At the same time, it starts with just words. When you're in elementary school, words are pretty much all you have. I think it's important to at least express in words what it means to be part of a community and part of a nation that believes in freedom and liberty, because those kinds of expressions lead to actions later in life. Teaching kids about what it means to live in a free country is, IMO, a very important lesson early in life, and it isn't about politics or even social studies. It's about history and the original "mission" of the United States.