But Criminals Don't Follow Laws!

[PepperElf]

McVeigh used a bomb, the 9/11 killers hijacked planes; that's a bit out of reach of most crazed mass murderers, I'd say. Not to mention, more strictly controlled nowadays than they were at the time of the quoted killings.

"out of reach"

Planes - sure.

but the bombs... um, IIRC he just used fertilizer and other chemicals available at any home improvement store.

They can still buy a gun if it makes them feel safer. But they should also call the police, get support from friends/family/coworkers, go to a shelter if needed.

Call the police? Sure. But remember they're not responsible for protecting you.

This isn't just my opinion either - this is coming from the Supreme Court.

Military grade also gets into forged (more expensive, but more durable) vs. milled components. As for bullet type, your information is incorrect. JHP is strictly a civilian round - its use by the military is a violation of the Geneva Convention (as is the use of explosive rounds for anti-personnel purposes - using them against equipment is OK). FMJ is military (also legal for civilian use, but rarely used due to expanding rounds being more effective).

Since true (as opposed to the glycerin or mercury "assisted expansion" described in "The Day of the Jackal") explosive rounds are generally found only in 20mm and larger calibers, and civilians are restricted to .50 and under, plus the fact that the explosives themselves, whether or not contained in a projectile, are illegal for civilians to possess, that's a moot point.

Actually I think you have it the other way around. Milled is more durable (and more expensive) than forged.

And indeed - you're right about FMJ vs Hollow points.

In a defense vid I saw (hosted by a Sworn LEO) hollow points are actually considered "safety rounds". Cos regular bullets (I call them paper punchers) are more apt to go right through your target and hit someone else too!

There are countless other stories of people losing their jobs, finding out their spouses cheated, or getting dumped, going home, grabbing their guns, and kill themselves. Sometimes they decide to kill other people first.

Thing is you keep going to the gun in this. Not everyone picks guns.

Consider this - japan has one of the highest suicide rates. On wiki (take with salt) it's reported as "the leading cause of death in men aged 20-44".
In 2009 the death rate was 23,472.

That's pretty fucking high.

But it's not guns they're turning too. It's trains, jumping, OD etc.

So the real reason people use guns? People use the tools they already have. Nothing more than that.
The tools don't MAKE them take action - they just grab the tools they have when they CHOOSE to take action.


I suspect part of the issue is that people see the gun use here and think "Oh if the gun hadn't existed this wouldn't have ended this way!" but that's really not true. If someone is that desperate they'll just use whatever tool they have.

and also can explain the difference in suicide rates / gestures for each gender

[PepperElf]

Do you realize that you are proving my point and somewhat contradicting your own? You say that people have to be FFL certified and then you say they don't.

I am saying that I can go to a gun show and buy a firearm without a background check.

NOT from a store. This is my point. There is no contradiction because I specified which were stores and which were not from stores.

STORES can ONLY sell firearms to people with NICS checks or CCW card holders. (the CCW is proof that you've been checked)

[MadMike]

There's a lot you can do during that time.

There's also a lot your attacker can do during that time. Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

[Nyoibo]

"out of reach"

Planes - sure.

but the bombs... um, IIRC he just used fertilizer and other chemicals available at any home improvement store.

From memory any large chemical or fertilizer purchases are flagged, I know they are over here, either that or you actually have to have a license to purchase large amounts.

[AccountingDrone]

They can still buy a gun if it makes them feel safer. But they should also call the police, get support from friends/family/coworkers, go to a shelter if needed.

And when I reported my Virgina dwelling scum stalker to the CT state police when he showed up here in CT, I got informed that he needed to do something besides *try* to drive me off the road into a ditch and get caught for them to do anything about him.

This is the guy that threw me across a room hard enough to concuss me and make a big enough thud that someone downstairs in a condo with the cement slab floors [Chesapeake House in Virginia Beach if anybody is interested. Great construction quality. ] to make the people below worried enough to call the cops on us.

[TheHuckster]

From memory any large chemical or fertilizer purchases are flagged, I know they are over here, either that or you actually have to have a license to purchase large amounts.

I have dozens of retailers who supply these materials. And they're not all the same brand retailer, and if I have a lot of patience I can even pay with cash and stagger my purchases in such a way that it doesn't raise any flags.

[Andara Bledin]

I have dozens of retailers who supply these materials. And they're not all the same brand retailer, and if I have a lot of patience I can even pay with cash and stagger my purchases in such a way that it doesn't raise any flags.

Throw in some other common gardening supplies to go with your fertilizer (maybe some plant food here, some plants there, a few tools elsewhere, etc) and they become even less remarkable.

Anyone who has the time and the inclination and a modicum of patience and the ability to do basic research could commit a heinous mass killing a la Oklahoma City. It's more difficult now than it was then, but it's still quite possible. Columbine wasn't more of a disaster than it was merely because the perpetrators lacked the discipline to actually test their devices prior to relying upon them. The devices in Aurora, however, were not only functional, but also far more sophisticated - only the perpetrator's disinterest in actually killing people as opposed to getting help staved off that particular disaster.

^-.-^

[crashhelmet]

In a defense vid I saw (hosted by a Sworn LEO) hollow points are actually considered "safety rounds". Cos regular bullets (I call them paper punchers) are more apt to go right through your target and hit someone else too!

A perosn shot with a FMJ round is more likely to survive, especially if the round passes through. A JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point for those that don't know the acronym) are designed to expand on impact. Where a FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) would leave an exit hole, a JHP would leave a gaping hole and do equal damage to your innards. it's why they're banned by the GC.

Thing is you keep going to the gun in this. Not everyone picks guns.

Consider this - japan has one of the highest suicide rates. On wiki (take with salt) it's reported as "the leading cause of death in men aged 20-44".
In 2009 the death rate was 23,472.

That's pretty fucking high.

But it's not guns they're turning too. It's trains, jumping, OD etc.

You're right. The extremely high suicide rate in Japan is very, VERY low when guns are factored in. That's because they have STRICT gun laws and outright bans.

They also have a culture that works their people to alcoholism, suicide, and other mental issues.

But you know what? Their suicides typically only take out the one that's suicidal. Very, very seldomly does it take another life with them. not like here in the U.S. where we have high numbers of murder suicides.

So the real reason people use guns? People use the tools they already have. Nothing more than that.
The tools don't MAKE them take action - they just grab the tools they have when they CHOOSE to take action.

And if we limit their access to those tools, their decisions are either stopped or changed. Without a gun, that worker fired after 27 years at the post office might just go home and hang himself or stick his head in the oven. Not grab a gun, go back to the Post office and shoot everyone.

I suspect part of the issue is that people see the gun use here and think "Oh if the gun hadn't existed this wouldn't have ended this way!" but that's really not true. If someone is that desperate they'll just use whatever tool they have.

Read my last reply for this too.

[crashhelmet]

NOT from a store. This is my point. There is no contradiction because I specified which were stores and which were not from stores.

STORES can ONLY sell firearms to people with NICS checks or CCW card holders. (the CCW is proof that you've been checked)

I'm not arguing stores here. I'm arguing your denial of the fact that people can buy through independent parties without any kind of background check. Most commonly at Gun Shows.

I'm not talking about someone walking into their neighborhood gun store and buying without a check. I'm not talking about someone going to a gun show and buying from a dealer. I'm talking about someone buying a weapon from Joe Carpenter, selling from his private collection.

[crashhelmet]

I said this:

They can still buy a gun if it makes them feel safer. But they should also call the police, get support from friends/family/coworkers, go to a shelter if needed.

There's a lot you can do during that time.

And some of you keep focusing on the part I bolded. You all seemed to ignore the part I underlined

If you're in fear for your life/safety, don't sit in an empty house like some horror-movie cliche. Don't walk around alone at night. Have someone escort you to your car after work. Have someone stay with you. Stay with someone else. Leave town. Buy a dog. Do something, anything, while you wait for that background check to clear if you feel the need to own a gun to protect yourself.

Hell... Take the time so spend down at a firing range to learn HOW to properly use a gun.

This "OMG I NEED A GUN" mentality is exactly what's wrong with our society in the whole gun debate.

[Andara Bledin]

And if we limit their access to those tools, their decisions are either stopped or changed. Without a gun, that worker fired after 27 years at the post office might just go home and hang himself or stick his head in the oven. Not grab a gun, go back to the Post office and shoot everyone.

It keeps coming back to this false and dangerous dichotomy.

If someone wants to kill others as an act of outrage/protest/notoriety, they will find the most convenient means and they will make their goal a reality. Taking away one of what are actually dozens of choices will just make them move on to the next choice.

The whole idea that they'll be stopped at the very first hurdle and just give up is naive and belies a complete lack of understanding regarding human nature.

But you know what? Their suicides typically only take out the one that's suicidal. Very, very seldomly does it take another life with them. not like here in the U.S. where we have high numbers of murder suicides.

This is not actually true.

A study of suicide and murder/suicide undertaken in the mid-90s found that the percentage of suicides that include the murder of another person (either wholly unconsenting or two young to do so) was fairly consistent.

Apparently, despite differences in means, motive, opportunity, attitude, and general suicide rate, the same percentage of those will be murder/suicides regardless of any other factors.

The primary difference is in the relationship of the parties; In the US, the majority are husband killing wife then self. In Japan and the UK, the majority are mothers killing their children.

^-.-^

[crashhelmet]

It keeps coming back to this false and dangerous dichotomy.

If someone wants to kill others as an act of outrage/protest/notoriety, they will find the most convenient means and they will make their goal a reality. Taking away one of what are actually dozens of choices will just make them move on to the next choice.

The whole idea that they'll be stopped at the very first hurdle and just give up is naive and belies a complete lack of understanding regarding human nature.

I'm not talking about homicidal psycho/sociopaths. I'm talking about people that snap because of a singular event and get that one single idea, fueled by emotion. The ones that "Go Postal." Not the ones that keep manifestos, plot, plan, and organize some major event the likes of Aurora or Columbine.

This is not actually true.

A study of suicide and murder/suicide undertaken in the mid-90s found that the percentage of suicides that include the murder of another person (either wholly unconsenting or two young to do so) was fairly consistent.

Apparently, despite differences in means, motive, opportunity, attitude, and general suicide rate, the same percentage of those will be murder/suicides regardless of any other factors.

The primary difference is in the relationship of the parties; In the US, the majority are husband killing wife then self. In Japan and the UK, the majority are mothers killing their children.

^-.-^

I won't bother to ask for the source of that study because a lot has changed since the mid-90s. The drug culture, the psychiatric field, the common mentality of our society, as well as others has changed so much.

[Andara Bledin]

I won't bother to ask for the source of that study because a lot has changed since the mid-90s. The drug culture, the psychiatric field, the common mentality of our society, as well as others has changed so much.

Of course. We'll just go with the gut feeling based on no data at all over the potentially out-of-date information.

That makes so much sense.

^-.-^

[crashhelmet]

Of course. We'll just go with the gut feeling based on no data at all over the potentially out-of-date information.

That makes so much sense.

^-.-^

Fine then. Please provide the source of your study and I will base an agreement or rebuttal off of it.

[Andara Bledin]

My comment was the rebuttal. You're the one that claimed that Japanese suicides involve fewer murders than US suicides. You come up with a citation.

^-.-^