Whiny, so-called "nice guys"

[The Shadow]

OK I'll bet from reading the title you may think that this rant is coming from a woman. We'll it's not

I'm single again and have recently re-entered the jungle known as online dating. I've joined a site that not only has all the usual features of a dating site, but also a series of discussion forums where the all the users can interact, share their experiences and stories and what not. (I'm not sure if I should mention the site by name, though I think a lot of you will already have guessed which one it is). A lot of the discussion is great, but as you might expect on a dating site, there's a lot of bitterness, whining and complaining there too. But the one thing I am so sick of more than anything else is reading about the poor plight of those single men who call themselves "nice guys".

Seriously, I have lost count of how many discussion threads I've seen there which start off with "Nice guys finish last" or some variation of that. These guys post looking for self-pity saying "Why do women only go for jerks and assholes?...why don't they give the nice shy guys like me a chance? If I had a girlfriend, I'd treat her so well...blah, blah..." What's even worse, is a lot of the users don't ignore them like they should, but tell them to cheer up...they'll find the perfect woman eventually etc. when they really should be ignoring them, telling them to get off the pity pot and stop feeling sorry for themselves.

Reading their experiences in detail, and having known a few guys like this IRL...let me say that here in a nutshell is wrong with these "nice guys":

1. They don't know how to assert or stand-up for themselves. They live to please other people, especially women

2. If they do manage to get a woman's interest, they become clingy, needy and suffocating, professing their undying love after having known her for only a day or two.

3. They behave condescending, and patronizing...reciting stuff out of a first year women's studies textbook, thinking it will impress her (the irony is that a lot of them sub-consciously hate women and have a lot of contempt for them)

4. The "nice" things they do...like giving gifts when they're not really appropriate, isn't done for the sake of being generous and kind...those gifts come with strings attached, meaning they expect something in return (ie; SEX)and become angry and resentful when they don't get it, which is anything BUT nice...it's manipulative.

These guys haven't seemed to learn that genuinely nice guys don't need to advertise themselves as such...their actions speak for themselves. "Nice" is a surprisingly bland adjective and should never be how you describe youreself.

These guys have no one but themselves to blame for their problems and sadly, they just don't seem to have the self-awareness to get it, and the rest of us just have to listen to their whining. Ugh!

[the_std]

THANK YOU! I have been wanting to say this for so long but didn't know how to word it without sounding like a bitch.

I agree, 100%, with everything you just said. Every time I hear someone describe themselves as "a nice guy" or hear the phrase "nice guys finish last" (unless it's the Green Day song ), I roll my eyes so hard they threaten to fall out of my head. Like you said, all of the "nice guys" I have ever met have been weak-willed, simpering and self-pitying to the extreme. The one I had the displeasure of dating did exactly what you said, bought me random gifts hoping for physical returns (dudes, don't buy your lady A PACKAGE OF CHEAP UNISEX SOCKS if you want some nookie tonight), was so clingy I thought that he'd had himself grafted to me and was a resentful, negative person because no one appreciated him and he felt the world owed him everything.

If I am every approached by anyone who uses the term "nice guy" in relation to himself, I run away, as far away as possible!

[Slytovhand]

Ummm - I'm gonna go the other way on this.

'nice guy' is of course, a stereotyped idea. And yeah, it also applies to a lot of males that lack assertive skills.. and any real understanding of what a girl wants. I had a mate of mine many years ago who constantly did the same things over and over... bought them cards, flowers, teddy bears etc to show his affection. He just simply get that that will freak a lot of girls out. yeah, can be nice a couple of times... but when the room starts to pile up with them... and not to mention the cards that went with them... (that is part of the reason I say 'had' before... that sort of thinking).

But... it's also true that 'nice guys finish last' to an extent. Seriously, a lot of women out there see the agressive angst-ridden yobo mentality, and just go for it. It's the 'bad guy' image that appeals to them.. cos they want to be the ones to 'tame' them.

I think a lot of people don't understand that 'aggression' isn't 'power', and 'assertion' isn't necessarily always speaking up (quite the opposite.. you can be strong and asssertive by backing down... no-one ever really needs to have that fight just because someone has insulted you... yeah - big whoop - get over it... my self-esteem isn't going to get battered cos of it). And 'bad' just simply isn't always 'good' just cos it's trendy. For that matter, all those 'bad boys' are just attention seeking anyway... if they don't get the attention, they're nobody (or, they're all me memememememe..... and me).

yep - I'm grossly generalising... same as what has come before in this thread. (btw - that's the real 'nice guys' I'm talking about not the 'winey' ones).

Personally, I think all things should be give and take. If I give something, I expect a 'return' on that. Not in the context of 'payment', but in the context of 'I think of you, and freely give my time, effort, money, thoughts, whatever for you... if anything is happening there, it doesn't all go one way...' There's no chance in hell I'll give give give, and she takes takes takes all the time!

Point 2 - oh, just shoot them

3 - that's where I'm getting annoyed... bit of a generalisation.. yes??

I consider myself a 'nice guy' in comparison to many guys out there. Granted, I've been single most of my life. I also think that humanity needs to learn a lot about itself about how to treat other people.

No, those 'nice guys' aren't doing things merely to please other people, they are doing it because they've gotten it into their heads that's how they need to behave to fit in, to get themselves noticed (and, sometimes, how not to get themselves ridiculed/beaten up/ etc).


hmmm - I may have gone off on a tangent which isn't precisely what the OP is about... cos I'm walking about some variant of the 'nice guy', while I hope the thread is about 'whiners and losers'....

STD... I wouldn't suggest running as far away as possible when you hear the term... I'd find out what that person means by it first. And 'cheap unisex socks'???? WTF????? (see 'not knowing what a girl wants' above...).

That's my 2c... times ou

[the_std]

Slyt, I agree that there are many out there who mean well, are genuinely nice, all the things you were talking about... But those guys rarely apply the "nice guy" label to themselves. I think that, if they're truly nice, other people apply that label for them. As in, "Hey Marcia, did you meet my friend Ted? Oh man, he's such a nice guy!". The true nice guys don't go around tooting their own horns or proclaiming their titles. Reservedness can definitely be a nice guy virtue and I've never met a true nice guy that described himself as a "nice guy".

[Giggle Goose]

These guys haven't seemed to learn that genuinely nice guys don't need to advertise themselves as such...their actions speak for themselves. "Nice" is a surprisingly bland adjective and should never be how you describe youreself.

You're SO right on this one. It's actually a bit self-absorbed to talk about how "nice" you are. Most people I thought were genuinely nice weren't such whiners. They followed the golden rule and treated others like they wanted to be treated.

If these guys were so "nice" they wouldn't start whining and making me feel guilty if I politely declined their advances.

[Greenday]

To be fair, women do seem to always go for guys that are assholes. And as a result, some non-assholes feel spited. Especially when women complain about the assholes, but continue to date assholes. Either, A.) stop dating the assholes or B.) stop complaining.

There's a difference between nice guys, and sissy/whiny nice guys. If all you do is sit around and mope about how bad it is to be a nice guy, then that's all you'll ever be. But if you actually show confidence, a little self-assurance, you'll end up ok.

But as I said, it's a very valid complaint that women go for the assholes. I have a lot of girl friends, I hear their complaints about guys they hook up with, and it's no surprise to me. Generally, the loud, uber-obnoxious guy grinding up on any girl that walks through the door ain't a nice guy. Both sides keep screwing up. It's not just one group.

So basically, be nice, just don't act like a whiny sissyboy.

[AFPheonix]

Ha ha, I'm sure if you played Dr. Drew on your friends you'd be getting some interesting responses.
Either that you you hang out with people who aren't happy unless they get to complain. I've seen those, too.

If you want chicks, be confident in yourself. It's attractive to us when you seem like you're sure of yourself and have your shit together. Perhaps that's what assholes seem to have in spades more so than self-described nice guys.

[anriana]

OK I'll bet from reading the title you may think that this rant is coming from a woman.

Or a queer man.

3. They behave condescending, and patronizing...reciting stuff out of a first year women's studies textbook, thinking it will impress her (the irony is that a lot of them sub-consciously hate women and have a lot of contempt for them)

What's even more ironic is that the Nice Guy would probably be in first year women's studies. Here they are defined on the feminism 101 blog: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress....ionsjargon/#HN

[Boozy]

I agree with the OP, 100%.

There are nice guys, and guys who describe themselves as "nice guys." It's the latter group the OP was talking about.

To be fair, women do seem to always go for guys that are assholes. And as a result, some non-assholes feel spited. Especially when women complain about the assholes, but continue to date assholes.

I understand what you're saying, but I've always been a bit annoyed to hear men make comments like this. It clumps all "women" together as one single entity instead of acknowledging that we are all individuals.

Do some women go for assholes? Sure... but that has not been my experience. My friends and myself have never put up with assholes.

If that's how it appears to you, Greenday, then I would submit that one of the following things is possible:

- Your friends are actually dating decent guys, but complain about them more often around you because they are blowing off steam. As a close male friend of theirs, they are using you as a sounding board for their relationship troubles. When their boyfriends bring them flowers or give them a back rub, they are more likely to gush to their female friends about it than you. So you have a skewed perspective of their relationships.

- Your friends are indeed interested in assholes. In which case, they are simply women whose psychological makeup makes them find assholes irresistibly attractive. They are not a balanced representational sample of womanhood. It could possibly mean that your psychological makeup makes you enjoy friendships with emotionally immature women. That's not at all unusual, as men like to feel needed. The damsel-in-distress appeal is strong.

Also, if your female friends are young, they'll probably outgrow the asshole stage. Once women develop a sense of self, they're less likely to put up with any disrespect.

[Greenday]

I'm going with option number 2, Boozy. I don't care what nice stuff they do, if the guys just did half the stuff my friends tell me, I'd still say they are assholes. And considering I do meet the guys at some point, I can get a good feel on them from that.

I know not all women are like that. I do have some friends who have good boyfriends. But since they don't complain, they don't get brought up in conversations like this usually.

[AdminAssistant]

Um, what I want to know is - where the hell are these nice guys and why aren't they asking ME out? Hm, because they follow around the super skinny uber-bitches.

All "women" are attracted to "assholes"? Well, from my perspective, all of these "nice guys" are attracted to "bitches", especially ones with nice bodies.

I'm gonna go sulk in the chronically single corner now....

[Greenday]

When you find them, ask them out instead of waiting for them to ask you out. That's my best advice.

If there's one thing I've learned, it's nothing happens if you just wait for them to occur.

[Boozy]

All "women" are attracted to "assholes"? Well, from my perspective, all of these "nice guys" are attracted to "bitches", especially ones with nice bodies.

Another truth! Self-described "nice guys" (not the genuinely nice guys) don't want to know why women don't like them. They want to know why "hawt" women don't like them.

Here's a tip for them: If you see a woman doing her grocery shopping with perfect make-up, a French manicure, and four inch heels, she likely doesn't have a very full life. It takes a lot of time to look like that. Only the very superficial are going to bother doing that for anything other than a special occasion.

[MadMike]

I can see both sides of this one. I used to be one of those "nice guys", and looking back now, I was a bit too clingy. And I lacked confidence. Still do, actually, but I've made some progress over the years.

But I also have to say too many women do go for the assholes who happen to be wrapped up in a pretty package. Then again, I guess guys aren't innocent of that either. I never really thought of it until AdminAssistant pointed it out. I wasn't one of them, most of the women I got involved with back then weren't that attractive, but they were beautiful on the inside. Or so I thought, anyway. But that's another rant altogether.

[blas87]

I take extreme offense to the comment that seeing a woman dressed very nicely means she doesn't lead a very full life.

Sure I am somewhat of a sloth and couch potato because of the shift I work and my inactivity during the week due to sleeping during the day versus night, but I would like to let you know that I have a very nice life, thank you very much.

During the work week, I dress pretty casual and keep the makeup and glamour pretty minimal because of the type of work that I do, and because I really don't care to look vavooom at work.

On the weekends, I do my makeup the way I want to, I spend some time making my hair look nice, I wear my nicest tops and jeans (and since I'm not at work, I can wear lower cut shirts and pants and open toed heeled shoes), and make some effort to make my toenails look like. I go out of my way to look great because I LIKE to look nice. I suppose I would be considered "over dressed" to some people out and about in public......

That kind of pisses me off to think that there are people who look at me at the store or at the mall looking the way I do, and assuming I'm a sad sad woman with an empty life because I choose to dress and look nice WHEN I can.

I consider myself a very nice person and I treat my family, friends, and guys the way they want to be treated. I may not get the same treatment in return, but I keep trudging on and on in my journey that all single people take.

I will agree that the confidence that the "bad boy" type has is what usually attracts the girls. Guys who are staring at the floor or look to be having a pity party aren't going to get any attention.

I will also agree that guys who only settle on a certain type of body shape or hair color are impossible as well.

I would like to also say that while there are some women who like to be treated like dirt and keep going after the same type of guy, not all of us do. I have been accused many times by my real life friends and members of CS for going after assholes consciously, but I do not. One of the sad truths about the dating world is that people change, and a lot of people put on a real good act until you are comfortable with them. I admit that I am on my best behavior when I meet someone new, but I don't flip a switch and become a crazy jealous girlfriend. Guys I have dated have been charming and nice in the beginning, and then over time lose interest (but hey, it happens), but instead of being honest and truthful, they do some pretty asshole things to get their point across. If I knew beforehand that someone I was persuing would turn out to be an asshole, I wouldn't go for him.