Whiny, so-called "nice guys"

[Boozy]

However... that persona that we have developed in our formative years... the values and principles we have cultured from a very young age... that very core of our being... that NEVER changes.

We build our character up until adulthood... usually our late teens into early twenties.

I agree with you slightly more now than I did after your first post. Your first post led me to believe that your were defining "formative years" as childhood and adolescence only. Now you're saying we can develop character into our adulthood.

So now the question is, where is the cut off? I think everyone can name someone they know personally who was still "growing up" well into their mid to late twenties.

How married are you to this idea? Because if you were to say, "People don't tend to change", then I would agree with you. But I think you're saying - and correct me if I'm wrong - that all people never change. That's such a blanket statement that it's almost certainly incorrect. There are probably so many exceptions that the rule is moot.

[Slytovhand]

I think Devilboy is having difficulty changing his views on this..... (or admitting he's wrong).

My first question is... what is a person's core personality? If something that comes off an apple tree tastes like a lemon, looks like a lemon, and feels and smells like a lemon.. what is it?

People change all the time. Mostly in minor ways, but each little experience alters us from the moment before. We adjudge things we encounter based on previous experiences.. but sometimes we get shown or go through something that throws us so far out from what we are used to dealing with that we have no choice but to change something 'core'.

Back to OP - yep DB, I do agree with you on something you said... when we meet other people, we throw up a persona. When we're over that other person, that persona vanishes, and thus "they've changed".

[Sylvia727]

Once into adulthood, people rarely change unless spurred by some stimulus, either external or internal. And even then, that's usually the natural response of their personality to the stimulus. Someone who converts to a new religion and changes their whole personality based on this religion was probably searching for a purpose in life. The change in their personality was a natural response to having found what they were already looking for. A drug addict who quits cold turkey probably had an experience that left them shaken. A man stops partying and starts buckling down at work because he's just learned his girlfriend's pregnant and he wants to be a good father. Gradual changes in personality happen as well, of course, but if you sift through their lives you'll usually find some smaller, subtler stimulus that they're reacting to.

[The Shadow]

I actually knew about this little gem when I originally started this topic, and I wondered if anyone else would link to it. So I'll do it now...

Why "Nice Guys" Are Often Such Losers

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/ran...niceguys.shtml

[Greenday]

Only problem with that article is that I see a difference between nice guys and insecure guys. Nice guys aren't always insecure.

[Devilboy]

Only problem with that article is that I see a difference between nice guys and insecure guys. Nice guys aren't always insecure.

This is true... however, the whole point of the article is, generally speaking... the guys who are not insecure, but rather truly are genuinely "nice", don't have a compelling need to label themselves as such.
In other words, the guys who insist on calling themselves "nice guys" are the ones who are insecure.

The article is terribly accurate with its description of the "Nice Guy" (tm).

[protege]

This is true... however, the whole point of the article is, generally speaking... the guys who are not insecure, but rather truly are genuinely "nice", don't have a compelling need to label themselves as such.

When I call myself a "nice guy," it's usually with a joking tone. I feel no need to go around claiming it. I let my actions (both in real life and online) do the speaking for me. And yes, I've been overlooked by most women for superficial reasons Unfortunate, but there's not really much I can do about it.

[The Shadow]

[The Shadow]

And...

[Boozy]

Those cartoons sum up the difference between "Nice Guys" and just plain old nice guys quite nicely.

You can always tell a woman who had previously been suckered into "owing something" to a Nice Guy. She tends to be pretty apprehensive of gifts early in a relationship, for example. Plain old nice guys might do something like that because they genuinely want to see the woman they like happy. If they're smart, they'll pick up on her discomfort and back off a bit until she's more comfortable.

To be fair, there are women who do stuff like this too. They may not buy gifts, but they'll do things like do a guy's laundry after only a date or two in an effort to make him feel indebted. These women are usually looking for commitment more than sex.

My husband told me once about a woman he dated briefly who got his roommate to let her into their apartment early one morning so she could make him breakfast in bed. They'd only been out once or twice and hadn't even gotten physical yet. Scared the living crap out of him when he opened his eyes and found her sitting in his bedroom.

[Greenday]

To be fair, there are women who do stuff like this too. They may not buy gifts, but they'll do things like do a guy's laundry after only a date or two in an effort to make him feel indebted. These women are usually looking for commitment more than sex.

What about a girl making a guy dinner? Same thing? If so...crap...

[Evandril]

What about a girl making a guy dinner? Same thing? If so...crap...

Depends on the reason behind making dinner, IMO. If it's being done to make the guy feel like he owes her something, 'tis not 'nice' behavior...If it's done out of a genuine desire to make dinner for you both, with no 'I've done this, now you owe me one' behind it, 'tis a different story.

[Boozy]

What about a girl making a guy dinner? Same thing? If so...crap...

Making dinner is more like planning a date activity for the two of you. It's not really a favour to be re-paid, in my opinion.

[the_std]

Making dinner is more like planning a date activity for the two of you. It's not really a favour to be re-paid, in my opinion.

Some of the "nice guys" I've met will use almost anything to create a debt. Walking with the girl to her class, calling her, and yes, making dinner. There are some men who will do anything to be "owed".

[guywithashovel]

At the risk of inciting anger in some people (especially those who possess vaginas), I'm going to say a few things about this whole "nice guy" issue. And let me emphasize that I am speaking from experience on this, whereas I used to be one of these so-called "nice guys." Though I do like to think that I'm not as bad as some of the real and hypothetical "nice guys" that have been mentioned in this thread.

Judging from my experience as a former "nice guy," I blame this whole phenomenon on women. I'm not saying that to be a misogynist. I'm not saying that because I dislike women (because I don't, not at all). I'm just being honest. Let me explain why.

For a long time, women have taken part in a little pastime they like to call "male bashing." Not all women do this, but more than a few do. This usually consists of jokes and derogatory remarks about how men typically live. Snide remarks and jocular barbs about their lack of domestic capabilities are often made, as well as ascerbic jests about their obsessions with sports, food, cars, and gadgets. In all, our glorious manly demeanors are attacked on every level by this coniving shrews. Consequently, many men listened to all this male bashing and thought, "Well, gee, evidently they don't like us the way we are, so it's obvious we need to change. It seems that they must like prissy, effeminate, whiny, clingy, sappy, overly-emotional guys." And as a result, these men proceeded to become guys of this nature.

Why do I say this? Well, it's because I tried to be this type of guy for the same reason the hypothetical men in my previous paragraph strived to become guys like that.