Whiny, so-called "nice guys"

[Giggle Goose]

For a long time, women have taken part in a little pastime they like to call "male bashing." Not all women do this, but more than a few do. This usually consists of jokes and derogatory remarks about how men typically live. Snide remarks and jocular barbs about their lack of domestic capabilities are often made, as well as ascerbic jests about their obsessions with sports, food, cars, and gadgets.

I see where you're coming from, but men do the same thing about women. My boyfriend and I make jokes about his obsession with gadgets, or my obsession with puppies and girly movies. It's all in fun, really.

The key is a balance of the type of person you described above, not one of the extremes. I always said: "If I wanted to date a woman, I'd be a lesbian." So I'm not going to date a guy that's a total p***y pushover. When I did, I got made fun of by both male and female friends for the way he would always try to avoid confrontation and fold to my will. 2 years later I found a "guy's guy" that's a real softie at heart, he just doesn't show it in front of his friends. Nor would I expect him too! I feel that our relationship is for US, not for other people. Guys trying to put on a show are just looking for sympathy from others IMHO. But everyone's different, this is just an example.

[Shangri-laschild]

The other problem you get outside of the "Nice Guy" is the guys who don't realize they are doing it. The ones who aren't tallying things up. Instead they are "just happy that she's happy." Now to some extent I get this. But as in all things, when you take it into the extreme you get a bit of a problem.

I have this friend. He likes me but knows nothing it ever going to come of it. He always likes to pay when we go to see a movie or get food. He tries to do any favor for me and lets me have my way on everything. He's a sweetheart, but he can also be a bit like a puppy who's eager to please. And sometimes hanging out with him makes me feel incredibly guilty. I try really hard to grab the check when I can or pay for things, because I don't want to be one of those girls who takes advantage of those guys. I have no idea how to bring the subject up with him. But honestly, that's another version of Nice Guy that's going to put girls off.

[Evandril]

I have this friend. He likes me but knows nothing it ever going to come of it. He always likes to pay when we go to see a movie or get food. He tries to do any favor for me and lets me have my way on everything. He's a sweetheart, but he can also be a bit like a puppy who's eager to please. And sometimes hanging out with him makes me feel incredibly guilty. I try really hard to grab the check when I can or pay for things, because I don't want to be one of those girls who takes advantage of those guys. I have no idea how to bring the subject up with him. But honestly, that's another version of Nice Guy that's going to put girls off.

Coming from someone who *does* those type of things...Please don't feel guilty. I know when I do things of the sort, I'm doing it because *I* enjoy doing it. Ask him point blank about him paying all the time, and let him know you'd like your chance to pay. If he doesn't let you, that's *HIS* choice, so you're not taking advantage of him...still your choice to accept it or not, but it's not taking advantage of him.

Personally, I tend to have more free money available than most of my friends, as well...So them trying to pay for me makes ME feel bad.

[Seshat]

Consequently, many men listened to all this male bashing and thought, "Well, gee, evidently they don't like us the way we are, so it's obvious we need to change. It seems that they must like prissy, effeminate, whiny, clingy, sappy, overly-emotional guys." And as a result, these men proceeded to become guys of this nature.

Two problems here.

1. Why let obvious 'conniving shrews' dictate who you should be?

2. The whole problem with 'nice guys' is that they're changing their behaviour to make women 'owe' them. And what you've described is changing their behaviour to make women 'like' them.
Now, I don't know how close 'like' is to 'owe' in this context, but I doubt the point of the exercise was to bake cookies. It seems likely that the changed behaviour was an attempt to get nookies, not cookies.

There are plenty of women in the world who will like you how you are. Sure, you may need to be polite and bathed and so forth, but you don't have to stop being -you-.

The other problem you get outside of the "Nice Guy" is the guys who don't realize they are doing it. The ones who aren't tallying things up. Instead they are "just happy that she's happy." Now to some extent I get this. But as in all things, when you take it into the extreme you get a bit of a problem.

It can be bloody difficult to distinguish between the two, as well. I always get jumpy when someone's being too nice to me.

[Slytovhand]

Thread tangent... I have had occasion to teach people to learn to ask for things, and to learn to give things. Best way to do it is to put them in the other person's shoes... Shangri-la, ask said friend what he likes about giving all the time. Then ask him why he insists you're not allowed to get that from him (the good feeling you get when you give). I'm one for fairness... I give when I choose to give, but I expect a person to reciprocate... otherwise, you end up with the "all give no get" scenario. (though I agree with Evandril... I can afford to give to people who can't).

I always get jumpy when someone's being too nice to me.

That's sad.

How can people be saints and angels, when everyone is only looking for (or willing to accept) demons and devils?

I think men and women, boys and girls, need to remember that we're all just human beings, and be treated as such. This whole 'sex' thing is vastly over-rated (as you can tell when people start changing their personality for it). Which leads to a question - does 'nice guy' phenomena occur only in relationship situations, or in other areas of society?

[guywithashovel]

Two problems here.

1. Why let obvious 'conniving shrews' dictate who you should be?

2. The whole problem with 'nice guys' is that they're changing their behaviour to make women 'owe' them. And what you've described is changing their behaviour to make women 'like' them.
Now, I don't know how close 'like' is to 'owe' in this context, but I doubt the point of the exercise was to bake cookies. It seems likely that the changed behaviour was an attempt to get nookies, not cookies.

There are plenty of women in the world who will like you how you are. Sure, you may need to be polite and bathed and so forth, but you don't have to stop being -you-.

1. You shouldn't let them dictate who you should be. However, that doesn't change the fact that some people do it.

2. It seems like you and I were on different wavelengths on this one. I was talking about guys who do these things in order to get people (females, particularly) to like them.

I have found that there are plenty of women who like me simply for who I am. This is why I no longer concentrate on being a "nice guy" and rather concentrate on being "me." And honestly, I like to think that this "me" is a pretty nice guy. But I also like to think he's not a push-over, not overly agreeable, or anything else typically associated with "nice guys."

My previous post---which was pretty tongue-in-cheek, I'll admit---was meant to convey my observations regarding this subject. It describes why I tried to be such a "nice guy" in the fairly recent past. I turned on my television, went out in public, listened to female speakers, etc. and heard women taking shots at men for the various things they do---e.g. obsess over sports and gadgets, possess lackluster domestic abilities, lose their temper over trival things, and so on and so forth. When I heard women talking about these things, I thought to myself, "Okay, evidently they don't like it when guys act like guys. So, perhaps I should try not to act like a guy so much. And that's what I did. And guess what? It actually led to unhappiness.

You know something else I have noticed? When a guy is doing these "nice guy" things, it's usually a young guy (teens, maybe early twenties) who probably doesn't have a lot of experience with the opposite sex. The same goes for females who commit the usual relationship blunders that many people roll their eyes at (e.g. thinking she can "change" a guy into who she wants him to be). When you get down to it, I think both sexes lack natural skill when it comes to interacting with the other sex. We just need to take time to learn how to do it. This often means irritating a few people in the process.

[Seshat]

That's sad.

How can people be saints and angels, when everyone is only looking for (or willing to accept) demons and devils?

There's a difference between 'nice' and 'too nice'. I'm fine with normal friendly courtesy and niceness, but once someone starts giving me things out of proportion with what I can give them, or do for them, I start looking for ulterior motive.

I was talking about guys who do these things in order to get people (females, particularly) to like them.

That tends to come across as fake, and over-nice (see above). And it's indistinguishable (for me at least) from 'nice so I can get sex'.

I thought to myself, "Okay, evidently they don't like it when guys act like guys. So, perhaps I should try not to act like a guy so much. And that's what I did. And guess what? It actually led to unhappiness.

I'm not surprised.

I have found that there are plenty of women who like me simply for who I am.

Yes. There are people out there who prefer the doormats, but most healthy people prefer people who are simply themselves. Maybe a polite, courteous version of themselves, but still themselves.

When you get down to it, I think both sexes lack natural skill when it comes to interacting with the other sex. We just need to take time to learn how to do it. This often means irritating a few people in the process.

I don't think there's a need for 'skill' at interacting with the other sex. Just a need to be a little bit aware of what the other sex deals with socially that one's own sex doesn't have to; and the sensitivity to recognize the other gender's 'acceptable' signals.

(For instance, the whole 'men who cry are sooks/women who shout are harpies' issue means that men and women have different signals for unhappiness and anger.)

[Shangri-laschild]

Coming from someone who *does* those type of things...Please don't feel guilty.

I try not to, but mostly it's feeling guilty because I'm overly worried about sending the wrong signals. I've accidently done it before and we had to have the "we are only just friends" talk which sucked for both of us. I don't know if he's holding out hope that I might some day change my mind. It's not something that ticks me off. I'm working hard not to send the wrong signals anymore and I made things clear so any missconseptions are on his part. But is makes me feel guilty sometimes if I think I'm getting close to that line of maybe sending bad signals. Him paying for me all the time maybe isn't, but it still sometimes makes me nervous in the same way.

Thread tangent... I have had occasion to teach people to learn to ask for things, and to learn to give things. Best way to do it is to put them in the other person's shoes... Shangri-la, ask said friend what he likes about giving all the time.

I can try that.

How can people be saints and angels, when everyone is only looking for (or willing to accept) demons and devils?

I have met people that are really nice and sweet, and thought nothing bad of it. But then there are other people who are just as sweet...and send off a different sort of vibe. And sometimes it's the situation. But if someone I know and trust is amazingly sweet and kind, then it's not something I really worry about.

I think men and women, boys and girls, need to remember that we're all just human beings, and be treated as such. This whole 'sex' thing is vastly over-rated (as you can tell when people start changing their personality for it). Which leads to a question - does 'nice guy' phenomena occur only in relationship situations, or in other areas of society?

Yeah, we should all remember that Just like we should be able to walk around at night without having to worry about being attacked. But it doesn't work like that. To some extent it does show up. Mostly in the same people. The people who are always whining about how they deserve a promotion because they grovel to the boss' every whim (but aren't actually star employees really). Or the people who always blame everyone else for their downfalls. It doesn't always work like that and they don't always go hand in hand, but those are some examples.

[smileyeagle1021]

I know I'm late to this party... but I'll still add my two cents

There is nothing wrong with a nice guy... I'd like to think that I'm a nice guy...
That said, I would never walk up to someone and say "Hi, I'm smiley, and I'm a nice guy"
If I truly am a nice person then my actions will show it... if I just want people to think I'm nice when it's really an act I'll broadcast just how nice I want you to think I am.
There is some truth that people are looking to hook up with the "bad guy"... but let's be honest, if you are the nice guy you claim to be, you probably don't want a mere hook-up.
And as to them being whiney... don't get me started about how bad your life is... I grew up with a single mother because my father killed himself, while we weren't poor we never had an excess of money, it wasn't until I went to college that I slept in a room with heating, and now I work graveyard shift to barely make ends meet while going to college... I'm not saying that to get sympathy, quite the opposite, I'm saying it because I've not let the bad things in my life define me... I've chosen to be defined by the good things in my life... these people need to learn to do the same.

[IDrinkaRum]

Interesting takes on "Nice Guys" at heartless-bitches.com

[protege]

Damn...is this thread still going on?

[DesignFox]

Rum, these articles are great. Spot on and some of it funny 'cause it's true.

[Evandril]

Damn...is this thread still going on?

Yep...we're too nice to kill it *ducks*

[Slytovhand]

Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF.

My first thoughts after flicking through one of the links from IDAR's post, was... why is it ok for women to be insecure, but not for guys? Men are 'expected' to be self-confident, to be the 'leader' in the relationship (as far as it actually happening...). It's the guy who's supposed to make the first move (fortunately, this attitude is changing..). And, all too often, it's the guy who's got to do all the running around, the asking out, the phone calls, the driving to somewhere, etc...

People (that's of all genders) have confidence in some areas of life, and lack confidence in others. It's a fact of life... insecurity in hooking up isn't a bad thing.. it just says the person isn't confident in their relationship with their preferred sexual choice...

I'm apparently an asshole.. I'm unforgiving, arrogant (Noooo.... you don't say!! ) and elitist. But... I spend most of my time making (bad) jokes and puns, and people - if not actually laugh - at least smile. I'm not totally ugly (well, I presume not... I could be wrong on that). And I believe in equality and fairness. I'm also sane (in the sense that war is insane...). Yet...still single... 'nice guy'? only in the context of sure, I'll do stuff for you... but I expect you'll do stuff back - no 'one way streets' with me )


Sorry - that one line just shat me!

/rant

[Greenday]

Very true Slyt. Socially, I'm very awkward. I tend to be shy and quiet when you don't know me. So why is it bad for me, but perfectly okay for women to be insecure?

But get me in a chem lab, and you'd be amazed about how I go through my experiments and procedures like it's nothing. Easy like Sunday morning.