Lying For A Cause

[Hyena Dandy]

I will come out and start this with... I may be a bit of a hypocrite on this one. I run a page, Dear Princess Celestia, on Facebook. It's got quite a lot of people who like it (4,000, which is a respectable number for a fan page) and I think I do a lot of good stuff on there. I get messages, some from roleplayers, some from people joking around, some from people wanting advice on their relationships... And a few from autistic people and small children who think that I really am Celestia.

With both, I do nothing to dissuade them from that. In fact, that's often the highlight of my time on the page. So, I will admit, that there are times that I will lie.

But I tend not to lie 'for a cause.' In the "Ends justify the means" way. For example, I am actively participating in a discussion about the woman who got 20 years for firing a 'warning shot.' I pointed out that this really isn't a good thing to contrast with the George Zimmerman case, and that I honestly don't think it shows how racist the American court system is.

I was told that I'm part of the problem for pointing this out, and that the specifics of the case 'Aren't the point' and that I shouldn't be trying to prove that she really was guilty based on the evidence. Because that doesn't matter, what's more important than whether or not she was firing in self defense is that there's an example of racism in the court system, whether or not she really SHOULD have been found guilty.

I'm fine with telling kids and disabled people I'm Celestia. If that brings joy to them, it doesn't really hurt anyone. But I'm far less fine when I'm lying to prove an important point. I feel like, if a point is true, it should be shown by evidence. Not by something I make up.

[Nekojin]

DPC is essentially role-playing, not lying - nobody really thinks that you're actually a deity-alicorn from Equestria who makes the sun rise and set. Everyone knows it's a gag, a fun homage to the TV series.

As you say, the ends don't justify the means. The specifics of a given case are ALWAYS the point. You don't let a person off who deserves their punishment, just because they're X race or gender - that's perpetuating a bias in a different way, not seeking to end the bias.

[Andara Bledin]

Lying, in the way you show it, is actively bad for the cause.

It makes everybody who doesn't agree, especially the people most guilty of the behavior in question, feel that are right because the other person is being dishonest, which makes them think that the person doing the lying doesn't really have a point.

If the facts of one case don't support your cause, go find one that does. I can guarantee that no matter your Righteous Activism, there is a case that highlights what you're fighting against.

[Hyena Dandy]

DPC is essentially role-playing, not lying - nobody really thinks that you're actually a deity-alicorn from Equestria who makes the sun rise and set. Everyone knows it's a gag, a fun homage to the TV series.

No, they really do. Most (The RPers and advice-askers, and I suppose some of the children) do know what's up. But I also know (having heard from their relatives) that some of the autistic people and other children really DO believe I'm Celestia.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

While I agree with you, it's something most causes engage in. It's probably not even worth getting into actively political causes because they all do it. But the one that I've engaged in discussions often with are often the 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 women are raped or sexually assaulted numbers which, while the actual numbers are absolutely too high and need to be addressed, are in fact false statements. And what's interesting is they reoccur in studies. 1 in 4 College women, 1 in 4 women before the age of 18, etc. Of course if all those studies were true, the actual number of rapes reported would have to be sky high. It's hard to delve into though without going study by study, so most of the time since I'm OK with the aim, I ignore it. Even if the actual number was 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 it would still be obscenely high and a higher risk than quite a few physical ailments people actively worry about.

The one I noticed recently was the Orson Scott Card boycott which tends to quote the man out of context repeatedly. In general, I am not a fan of the concept for the main reason the film has far larger stakeholders in it that LGBT supporters who will suffer far more damage. But watching it, my stomach churns a bit when I see him quoted which is usually a blog quoting a blog quoting a blog which take one line out of context (a sentence or two) from a political argument that was 8 pages long and provides the necessary context to understand that statement.

As someone who doesn't mind polemic discourse, it pisses me off because the only way to argue back is to tell someone to read the damn argument they're referencing. But I can empathize with them not wanting to because it is something they whole-heartedly disagree with. And that's fine, but they are actively strawmanning a viewpoint and insulting the author without any regard to what's actually been said. It's annoying. And it's the internet so they find infinite support in what is an incorrect interpretation.

[lordlundar]

Where is it, where is it... Ah! Here we go.

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp06032004.shtml

When fanboy's go wrong. First of 6 parts.

On a more serious note, it's admirable, but don't go too far.

[Andara Bledin]

And what's interesting is they reoccur in studies. 1 in 4 College women, 1 in 4 women before the age of 18, etc. Of course if all those studies were true, the actual number of rapes reported would have to be sky high.

Point A and point B are not corollary. And point A doesn't prove what you think it proves, either.

First, the fact that there are studies that come up with these numbers and that people use the numbers these studies come up with actually refutes the idea that the people using them are "lying for their cause." Some of them quite likely believe the numbers to be real and have no knowledge that they're passing on inaccurate information. That is quite the opposite of "lying." I'm sure there are people who are quite aware of the fact that the numbers are wrong, and those people are lying, but not everybody who uses them is a liar; some are just ignorant or ill-informed.

Second, most rapes go unreported. Still. Were the numbers higher, they'd likely not be reflected even close to accurately in the reporting and there's a good chance that they wouldn't increase nearly as much as we all would hope they would. Particularly in cases where the rapist is in a position of power over the victim.

That said, not everybody lies for their cause, and not all causes lie to make their point. Plus, it's good to demand accuracy and accountability out of them. Just walking away is not a healthy solution to the problem, especially if you happen to support the overall effort.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

I find it a bit of a giggle you think I was proving anything other than whinging on the topic. The topic (sexual assault) is too deep to hijack this topic. Frankly I was writing at high speed to try to get out the door.

And yes, I have known people on this topic who are aware of where they have been debunked or use dated statistics AND quote them. So due respect to those ignorant people that are ignorant of what underlies the numbers they are quoting, but I'm not talking about them.

[Nekojin]

Back to the "Lying as Princess Celestia" thing - it's really no different than people dressing up as (professional) Santa Claus at Christmas time. It's a social lie that is fully understood by most, and brings enjoyment to those who aren't "in on the secret."

[Hyena Dandy]

not all causes lie to make their point.

No causes lie to make their point. Causes are incapable of lying. People lie to make their point. Every cause has people who will lie to make their point, who will manipulate evidence, but that's not the cause's fault. Sometimes the cause is good, sometimes it's bad, and sometimes it's BASED on a lie. But a cause is not capable of lying.