Online Advice

[Slytovhand]

Background: I just got myself wrangled in a CS thread asking for advice. I came in late, and waded through 12 pages of mostly "judgemental crap" (to quote myself).

Given only a few lines of text coming from a person that almost no-one actually knows, how can we truly give anyone 'advice' on how to handle that situation? Let alone what happened - insults were flung, the 'perpetrator' was metaphorically knee-capped, and the advice was to get away from said person ASAP.

Those few lines of text indicate only 1 person's view of things, as they recalled them (meaning - how they interpreted what was said/done, and what they chose to remember of it) - and that's of a situation that could have taken place over a series of hours (occasionally, it can be a long going thing - which alters the situation a little...).

So - how the hell can people expect to offer 'advice' or even make any sort of sane judgement based on that? Let alone high horse it and tell someone what they should do, because the other person is clearly a <insert whatever epithet is chosen>???

(oh - side rant - why is it ok to make disparaging remarks to a person not involved in a forum - to the point that it could be slander&/or lible - but forum members are sacrosanct?? Is it merely because the forum members can say they have been offended, but the non-members don't have that option - so they're a free-for-all?? Also, how come saying another person is stepping over the line of decency is 'attacking' them?? ie - writing "judgemental crap")



There has been a minor discussion on said thread, but I've brought it over here for appropriateness....

[Rapscallion]

So - how the hell can people expect to offer 'advice' or even make any sort of sane judgement based on that? Let alone high horse it and tell someone what they should do, because the other person is clearly a <insert whatever epithet is chosen>???

Someone asks for advice, they get it based on the information they provide.

What more can we do?

(oh - side rant - why is it ok to make disparaging remarks to a person not involved in a forum - to the point that it could be slander&/or lible - but forum members are sacrosanct?

Let's see - the name of the site is 'customers suck'. Taking that thought to its logical conclusion, you have to say that we can't say mean things about sucky customers, because all we have are a few lines from a biased person in the situation. The rules is there to maintain forum harmony and stop people fighting etc. If someone's not a member, generally speaking unless they're identifiable and going to suffer as a result of a few words on a forum, mastitis.

Slander/libel can only come into it if the slandered person is identifiable and suffers actual loss as a result of the actions they're complaining about. If someone puts in a name that we can identify etc, we remove it. We're here to protect the community, which would be difficult if the site gets under the hawk-eyed gaze of lawyers.

Rapscallion

[Slytovhand]

Well, in response to the first - yes, I know... What I got annoyed with is that there are replies basically along the lines of "What? S/he did that?? Dump them, they're a loser". I think it's becuase there is a significant difference between "they are a loser", and "that action is loser-ish"... as well as the blatant vitriol thrown in general.

I'm not suggesting that mods (if you are indeed referring to the mods by saying 'we')necessarily 'do anything', other than pointing out the lack of facts compared to the almost certainty of the advice given. If you're referring to the posters... yeah, well... everyone's got an opinion...


The second point, while brought about by a CS thread, also relates generally.

Can't slander be determined to be loss of reputation? Identifiability - I didn't know you did that, though I presumed you'd just PM the poster.

Lawyers.... don't worry - it'll happen

[Boozy]

Given only a few lines of text coming from a person that almost no-one actually knows, how can we truly give anyone 'advice' on how to handle that situation?

I would tend to agree, which is why I've never asked for advice online about anything personal or substantial. I also rarely respond to requests for advice about personal situations, both online and in real life. It drives my sister crazy. I'll say things like, "You live with him. You know him better than I do. What do you think?"

But if others believe they'll get some helpful responses based on a short description of their situation, who am I to disagree? If someone puts themselves and their situation out there, they'll get advice - some right, some wrong, most of it somewhere in between.

I strongly suspect that people who ask for advice online a) already know what they want to do, and b) word their description of the situation in such a way as to get responses supportive of that action.

[DrT]

I strongly suspect that people who ask for advice online a) already know what they want to do, and b) word their description of the situation in such a way as to get responses supportive of that action.

I tend to agree with that, at least for the majority of calls for help.

However I would input that some people call for help because they need choices, and are too distressed to think coherently. Or they need to vent.

[Greenday]

I tend to think people post their problems because they just want confirmation of what they are thinking. At least that's what I seem to do. Usually I know what I have to do. I just want to hear from someone else that it's what I should do.

[Lace Neil Singer]

There's also the attention whores, who post made up situations online in order to garner sympathy and attention.

I will stress that I do NOT mean anyone on CS.com is one of those; but believe me, they do exist. There was a girl on Metal Sludge who did just that; posted about loads of bad stuff that happened to her, and it ended with someone posting about her death. It turned out that nothing she'd posted was true, and she wasn't dead, either; she'd just made the whole lot up for attention.

She was only one of a few situations, including a girl on another site who posted pictures of an actress and said they were her; cuz the actress wasn't very well known outside of a particular fandom (she played this character who's name rhymes with "Snuffy"), she got away with it til someone who was a fan of the show twigged and told everyone. She was also a "woe is me" attention seeker, with loads of stories on how her life sucked. Cuz of these people, and others, I'm a bit wary of people asking for advice online.

[Shards]

I would ask if you were opposed to giving your friends advice on their lives in reality, but Boozy seems to have covered that.

I like to think of the people on CS.com as my friends, and when someone does something to make a friend of mine, online or off, unhappy, I like to try to do something about it. Just like you aren't comfortable making judgments based on limited exposure, I'm not comfortable sitting back and doing nothing. (On a side note, this is probably why you're still questioning the justification of the war in Afghanistan, and I'm joining the Marine Corps.)

Different people are wired different ways, and the fact is, any time a situation is discussed between any given two people, sides are chosen, even by level headed people, some of us are just more willing than others to throw ourselves on the side of the person we "know" and care about without regard to the opposite side. I mean, growing up, I often saw bullies attacking my best friend, and I would run up and try to throw them off. I didn't think 'Gee, I wonder if S insulted his sister, or stole a quarter or something,' I just ran in and took my friend's side. If he had deserved it, I would whack him one and tell him not to do it again, but the majority of my fighting was against his opponent, because he was my friend. People take sides in debates or decisions, and there's rarely a true "middle ground" except to step aside entirely.

Quite frankly, as much as I do like you as a person, I have to say your recent posts have given me cause to picture you as a bit of a snob, Slyt. Again, I have nothing against you, but you seem to be trying to separate yourself from some aspects of human nature, and then you give those of us who don't crap for not following you.

Just my $0.02

[Slytovhand]

Yes, I'm also thinking that many/most ppl post already knowing what they will/should do, and just seeking support. Sometimes people seem out of their depth, and are looking for a bit better perspective.

Shards, in answer to your first, yes I am a little loathe to give 'advice'. I prefer to show choices, perspectives and possible consequences. Alternatives are great things. And, more often than not, I will come up with something they haven't thought of, mostly because I'm not actually in their shoes, so, like the rest of us who don't just buy into what they are seeing, can show something else. My friends (and those who have come to me over the years) have expressed gratitude for that... so I'll keep on keeping on

(On a side note, this is probably why you're still questioning the justification of the war in Afghanistan, and I'm joining the Marine Corps.)

a) we're in a completely different country, b) as I've expressed in a few different places on Fratching, I don't think Al Qaeda had all that much to do with it - so there wouldn't be much point going to a war over there if WTC bombings was my justification. I'm certainly not alone in that thought... here or in the US.

Different wiring - most certainly. For whatever reason, I chose to go with truth over feelings. I will back my friends... til I see them constantly 'insulted his sister or stole a quarter or something'. If that was their behaviour as a standard, then they don't remain my friend for long. Similar to what you said, there are 3 versions to an argument - yours, mine and the truth. I prefer the last.

your recent posts have given me cause to picture you as a bit of a snob, Slyt.

Yep, fair enough. Actually, the term I use is 'arrogant' (not 'conceited' or 'egotistical' though - I have self-esteem issues in relation to other people ..so really, 'others-esteem' )

Again, I have nothing against you, but you seem to be trying to separate yourself from some aspects of human nature

This is true. I am an idealist. I know humans can raise themselves up from the crap that they choose to stay in. Concepts such as honour, courage, strength and wisdom are almost archaic these days. The majority of humanity doesn't strive for much... other than merely self-survival. But the potential is for oh so much more.

(and again, I'm not alone in this thinking... these ideas are what join my circle of friends...)

and then you give those of us who don't crap for not following you.

Hmmm... perhaps. Certainly for those who just stick their fingers in their ears and go "lalalalalala... I'm not listening". You know, the ones Pedersen named the "wilfully ignorant".


Btw -

as much as I do like you as a person

Ditto

As I think I said earlier in the other thread - when you go, keep yourself safe! And good luck! (oh - and see if you can keep posting on the boards to say you are safe).

[blas87]

I personally ask for family/friend/man advice from you folk on CS because quite frankly, even though none of you know me or much more about me than what I write about, none of you judge me as harshly as some of the people I associate with in real life.

People on CS can offer both points of view and all kinds of possibilites, and I never have to be worried about being thought of as an idiot or a whore or a dumbass or a drunk. Even if some threads have suggested I was in the wrong or I was acting immature, no one flat out said anything disparaging to me or really made me feel offended to the point of wanting to throw my laptop into my pool.

Maybe I need better real life coworkers and friends, but I get better advice from strangers online than some of the assholes I have to deal with in real life.

[Shangri-laschild]

One thing to think about is who benifits from the replies.
-If the person really is telling the truth about what's going on then they benifit and it gives them the courage to either try to make things work or get out of the relationship.
-If someone is actually dealing with a similar problem then they see the advice and have ideas on how to deal with it.
-Someone needing support or feeling like they aren't alone, posts like that make them realize that we are a sort of community here and they have somewhere to turn.

The second and third reasons don't even require it to be honestly and truely a real situation. No, I'm not saying it doesn't suck when someone lies to get sympathy.

Sometimes when people post, yes they do already know what they need to do, but they need a little push. I've gone to my best friend before for advice when deep down I knew what I needed to do. Sometimes you just need to know that you've got support so that big step isn't so scary. Sometimes the thing that deep down you know you need to do is something that you haven't quite admitted to yourself yet and you need to hear it said.

[SorryIsGoodEnough]

As pathetic or attention whore-ish as it may be, I really need advice sometimes from people online.

For example, my thread on CS. I can honestly say that I did not recognize the seriousness of his blaming ME for his situation, even though I got out of a bad two year relationship in July. The advice I received on CS.com allowed me to feel just a little bit stonger and validated, so I could do what needed to be done, even though at the time of my original post, I hadn't known that breaking up really was an option. I was just throwing it out there.

Advice online is useful, for me, because it's hard for me to look someone in the eye while they judge me for asking a stupid question. Online, I get to enjoy a middle ground between acceptance and honesty. It's a relief.

[Evandril]

Given only a few lines of text coming from a person that almost no-one actually knows, how can we truly give anyone 'advice' on how to handle that situation? Let alone what happened - insults were flung, the 'perpetrator' was metaphorically knee-capped, and the advice was to get away from said person ASAP.

Well, honestly, on a forum called 'Customers Suck!' that has enough examples 'proving' that...By the time people get to an advice thread, they are most likely *ready* to knee-cap someone. If the same people had found the thread in the middle of a 'sweetness and light' board, I'm betting the answers would have been different.