"How dare you not want to spawn!"

[Greenday]

Just told my sister about how she has to start having kids sooner or later so my mom can have grandkids. I told my sister how my mom may think I'm joking about getting snipped, but I'm totally not kidding. Then my sister proceeded to say "That's horrible." Damnit, there's nothing wrong with me not wanting to go through 9 months of dealing with a pregnant wife/girlfriend/partner/life-mate, God knows how many nights without sleep, etc. etc. Not for me.

[IDrinkaRum]

Wait a minute Greenday, it's "horrible" that you don't want kids? I say it's more horrible for someone to have kids and then leave them behind or abuse them or just leave them on a street corner one day and never look back. You know what you do and do not want. I think your sister needs a boot to the head. You're an adult. You have your own mind. End of story.

[McDreidel09]

I'm gonna be the black sheep in this thread.

I want to have kids. Not now of course, but at least after I get my bachelor's, get a job, and then get married (in that order).

I keep seeing the question "Why would you want to have one of those drooly,screaming things?" I'm not going to say "Who wouldn't?", but I will say this (not to try to convince people to have kids, just a quick thought) : Those drooly,stinky things are only that way for a little while. They do grow up and mature. If one teaches them right, they won't be screaming all the time. They can even become your best friend after a while...after they don't need your parenting of course.

I can see why some people don't want kids. I was like that too. I saw the kids I baby-sat acting so horribly, that I swore off of children. Later on, I figured out that if you raised them right, they wouldn't be so horrible. I know it's not for some people. I'm not mad at people for not wanting to have children.

I just hope that I'm not looked down upon because I do want children. To everyone's relief, I don't want to have one until I am able to support it. I am going to be the first one in my family to go to college and I will not have a child spoil it, unlike my family who do not know the meaning of protection.

[Greenday]

We don't care if someone else wants to have kids. If that's what you want and you are actually going to raise them, then good, more power to you. We're just sick and tired of being told there's something wrong with us for not wanting to reproduce.

[Amethyst Hunter]

I can see why some people don't want kids. I was like that too. I saw the kids I baby-sat acting so horribly, that I swore off of children.

Just so you know, this is a classic "bingo" (bingo being a typical cliched phrase that is often thrown at CF people) many of us have heard before. "I used to be like you, but YOU'LL CHANGE YOUR MIND." That sentiment is irritating to CF people because it implies that we don't know our own minds and it's just a 'phase' that we're going through, when the majority of us have clearly thought over our decision thoroughly. Not that this is what you're doing, but it's something to keep in mind if you ever run into someone who says that they don't want kids. Yes, a few people do eventually change their minds, but most of the time that doesn't apply. Treat it like you would if that same person had just said "yes, I do want kids" and be like "that's nice", and they'll definitely appreciate you for it.

I just hope that I'm not looked down upon because I do want children.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to have kids, just as there's nothing wrong with *not* wanting to have kids. Most of the CF people I know or know of have no problem with kids or parents in general; it's the bad behavior of some kids and the crappy parenting of "breeders" (i.e., people that don't raise their kids properly and teach them manners) that riles them most, and that's what you're liable to hear if you were to be amidst a group of CFers talking about the subject.

Me personally, I'm on the moderate point of the spectrum - I like well-behaved kids, hate brats/mean kids, and I'm cool with parents in general so long as they don't try to pull the "I'm a parent so I outrank you!" attitude (which real parents don't do; this is what you'd see in a "breeder"-type, aka sucky customer). I even make it a point to compliment those parents (and their kid/kids too) whose kids are behaving in an exceptionally awesome manner.

I just have no interest in taking on what I see as an intensive job whose risks and pitfalls outweigh any benefits to me personally, and that's pretty much how it is for most CF people.

[IDrinkaRum]

How about this AH?

I was just like you, but I changed my mind. I'm in the minority when it comes to decisions like that. More power to you for not waffling like I did and giving into a breeder mentality.

Yes, I heard my biological clock tick the first time I held a friend of mine's son. I was all over the "I want a baby now" thing. And when I had my daughter, it was right. For me. Is it right for someone else? No. And I don't expect it to be that way for everyone.

If someone criticizes you for not wanting kids, I'm not going to say who cares because y'all do or it wouldn't warrant a discussion here and in other parts of cyberspace. (I'm a member of the childfree LJ forum because I believe everyone has a choice in what they want to do with their bodies and if they don't want to disfigure their bodies with a pregnancy (and let's face it, a woman's body is disfigured for the length of time they carry the baby and for some women that disfigurement doesn't go away) or they don't want to pass on defective genes or they just plain don't want kids because they don't want kids - even if they they themselves are perfect - it's their business and their business alone). But people need to learn to chill out and not be judgmental. We're given Free Will. And not everyone went around procreating in the Bible (ahem ... Jesus ... and the Apostles ... I don't remember reading about their wives and children, or did I miss something?)

[Evandril]

Just so you know, this is a classic "bingo" (bingo being a typical cliched phrase that is often thrown at CF people) many of us have heard before. "I used to be like you, but YOU'LL CHANGE YOUR MIND." That sentiment is irritating to CF people because it implies that we don't know our own minds and it's just a 'phase' that we're going through, when the majority of us have clearly thought over our decision thoroughly. Not that this is what you're doing, but it's something to keep in mind if you ever run into someone who says that they don't want kids. Yes, a few people do eventually change their minds, but most of the time that doesn't apply. Treat it like you would if that same person had just said "yes, I do want kids" and be like "that's nice", and they'll definitely appreciate you for it.

Personally, I tend to rank "I'll never have kids" with "I'm never getting married", as a statement believed at the time it was made, but not something I put that much weight on...Mainly because of how *MANY* times I've heard it, and seen people change their minds. Not saying you will or won't change your mind, but not putting money on it either way

I'd far prefer more people DID stay childless, or adopt, or the like, honestly, just not something I'm expecting.

[Flyndaran]

Personally, I tend to rank "I'll never have kids" with "I'm never getting married", as a statement believed at the time it was made, but not something I put that much weight on...Mainly because of how *MANY* times I've heard it, and seen people change their minds. Not saying you will or won't change your mind, but not putting money on it either way

I'd far prefer more people DID stay childless, or adopt, or the like, honestly, just not something I'm expecting.

I don't think that assuming some particular person has a low probability of remaining childless just because so many others that say that don't is very fair.
My girlfriend will remain childless for the rest of her life. That is a simple fact. She dislikes kids, and has numerous family related defects that she doesn't want passed on.
I will remain with my girlfriend for as long as we live, so my mild distaste for children doesn't really matter.

[Evandril]

I don't think that assuming some particular person has a low probability of remaining childless just because so many others that say that don't is very fair.
My girlfriend will remain childless for the rest of her life. That is a simple fact. She dislikes kids, and has numerous family related defects that she doesn't want passed on.
I will remain with my girlfriend for as long as we live, so my mild distaste for children doesn't really matter.

You misunderstood me...You'll note I said I'd put no money *either* way, not that I thought you'd change your mind. The statement of "I'm never having kids", to me, is something I smile and nod at...and ignore A statement of "We're not having kids for x, y, and z reasons" gets a bit more respect, but I still won't take it as a definitate fact...simply because Nature tends to have it's own ideas at times. The one certaintly I've seen is things change *shrugs*

[Lace Neil Singer]

I've suffered from clinical depression in the past; I also have Aspergers. Who's to say that both or either of these won't have an effect, should I have kids? I can see myself being driven crazy by crying and smothering a child, and the image scares me. I can also see me going down with PND and harming myself or the baby. That coupled with my dislike/indifference towards kids is enough to ride over any lingering doubts.

[The Shadow]

I'm also childfree, aka "childless by choice". I'm 34 and have known since I was about 17 or 18 that I would probably never have any kids of my own. There were many reasons for my decision; probably too many to list here but basically I just felt I wasn't cut out to be a dad. Thankfully, I haven't gotten too much of this bullshit from others and I think the fact that I'm a guy probably has a lot to do with it. I think CF women are given a much harder time since too many people just automatically assume that every woman has a maternal instinct, which is utter crap. I've known plenty who don't.

That being said however, I find that it's mostly my childfree peers who are more of an annoyance these days. Now before I go any further, I want to make it very clear that what I'm about to say does not, in any way, apply to any of the other posters here. In fact, based on what I've read so far I doubt any of you who've identified as CF are like the one's I've had a bug up my ass about.

For about four years, I was part of an online community for the chlidfree. I stayed around there because it was a great place to hang out and socialze. But the more I learned, the more I realized that what bound most of them together was not so much the fact that they didn't have kids, but the fact that their whole identity seemed to be wrapped up in this fact, or at least was a very large part of it. But more significantly, the majority of them really seemed to hate kids. That in itself didn't bother me, but the fact that they were in complete denial of this and I've had a bit more respect for them if they were just honest about it.

Another thing I noticed was that among the rants that came up frequently were people venting about their experiences with kids in public places. Much of it I totally agreed with. For example if someone was venting and ranting about having their dinner ruined by a screaming baby or toddler in a good restaurant or at a late night showing of a movie, I was in total agreement with that. There are some places where kids just don't belong. But these people also complained about kids in grocery stores fer chrissakes! I mean, come on! Not only is it unreasonable and unrealistic to not expect kids in grocery stores, but it's also impractical and impossible for parents to leave kids at home or in the car while they do their shopping. If that's not total selfishness, I don't know what is!

Another frequent complaint that came up was that the childfree were discriminated against and treated as second class citizens. Their proof for this? The fact that parents get certain breaks and perks that non parents don't get -- ie; "baby bonuses", tax deductions etc. Plus special employment accomodations like on site day care, the ability to leave early and or arrive late to look after sick kids etc. And they all seemed to think this was horribly unjust and unfair and shows how childfree are discriminated against...blah...blah...

Well boo fucking hoo.

I never understood what their problem was. To me, it's not only entirely fair, but also makes perfect sense that people with children are given special benefits and breaks that myself and other childfree people are not. Why? Aside from all the responsibilities that come with raising kids, people who have children are making an investment of sorts...an investment that ensures the welfare of everyone and future generations and the survival of the human race. Most people will continue to want children, and people like myself who don't will continue to be a minority. I'm not only OK with that, I'm actually very grateful. Because if it were the norm for people not to want kids, there would probably be far more pressure on all of us to have them, even those who don't want them. So I'll always be grateful to those who want children, for their decision in large part is what affords myself and others the freedom to choose NOT to have them.

I eventually did make my opinion known after keeping silent for so long. As you can guess, I did not make myself popular. It should come as no surprise that I don't visit there any more.

[smileyeagle1021]

the more I realized that what bound most of them together was not so much the fact that they didn't have kids, but the fact that their whole identity seemed to be wrapped up in this fact, or at least was a very large part of it.

doing a slight thread jack. You have pointed out the problem with nearly every pride group... be it CF pride, gay pride, black pride, midget pride (ok, that may be across the line )... these groups take one facet of who they are and they turn it into who they are.
I will likely never be a member of a gay pride group, because while yes, I am gay, that is not who I am... that defines who I'm attracted to, which I guess helps shape who I am... but I'd like to think I am so much more than just who I want to have sex with. I could actually go on for quite a while about that, but I'll save that for another thread.

/endthreadjack

[Amethyst Hunter]

For about four years, I was part of an online community for the chlidfree.

Let me guess, Shadow: it was LJ, right? 'Cause I'm thinking I know exactly what you're talking about here...

I stayed around there because it was a great place to hang out and socialze. But the more I learned, the more I realized that what bound most of them together was not so much the fact that they didn't have kids, but the fact that their whole identity seemed to be wrapped up in this fact, or at least was a very large part of it. But more significantly, the majority of them really seemed to hate kids. That in itself didn't bother me, but the fact that they were in complete denial of this and I've had a bit more respect for them if they were just honest about it.

It can get kinda...brutal...over there at times.

I can't remember if I've said this here (or elsewhere) before (probably), but I'm on the moderate spectrum of CFdom myself. I like kids all right, so long as they're behaved. I respect very well-behaved kids and will try to compliment both child and parent on that. I *despise* brats and mean kids, though fortunately I've rarely run into those. Most of the time I'm indifferent to the presence of kids, unless one is doing something (for good or bad) that happens to catch my attention.

Another frequent complaint that came up was that the childfree were discriminated against and treated as second class citizens. Their proof for this? The fact that parents get certain breaks and perks that non parents don't get -- ie; "baby bonuses", tax deductions etc. Plus special employment accomodations like on site day care, the ability to leave early and or arrive late to look after sick kids etc. And they all seemed to think this was horribly unjust and unfair and shows how childfree are discriminated against...blah...blah...

I do have to agree in part with this sentiment. I've heard of cases where CF people with very sick pets or family members can't get time to care for them but someone with a child (who half the time isn't even that sick) can up and leave at the boss's whim. Not that the parent shouldn't be allowed to take off, but I think it'd be nice if that courtesy was extended to those CFers with critical problems too.

And I do think that the financial incentives dangled are a big part of why bad parents continue to spawn - "Hey, the govt. says we get an extra 1000 bucks tax credit if we pop out another, let's have at it!" And with the environment and poverty levels the way they are right now, I think we should offer incentives NOT to have kids (or at least more than a certain number).

However, you make an interesting point at the end. I think that CF will always be the minority, I'd just like to see it viewed with a little more friendliness (for lack of a better word at the moment) towards it.

[Greenday]

Wow...just wow...My mom and I got on the topic of me having kids and I was much more serious with her this time around about me not having kids. I told her why I felt adopting would be a much better option for me and it's better for the world in general.

And to my surprise, my mom didn't give me that line about how horrible it is for me to think like that. She usually uses that line with me. This time it was just a calm conversation on reasons why I might want kids later on in life, and how she thinks it'd be terrible not to have my awesome genes get passed on.

At least it's some sort of progression. I should just get it done while at school so she won't know.

[smileyeagle1021]

"Hey, the govt. says we get an extra 1000 bucks tax credit if we pop out another, let's have at it!"

nitpick... the government pays $1000 per year per child as a tax credit PLUS $3400, make that $3500 starting this year, gross income deduction per child... so really you are getting back $1000 plus $3500 times your tax rate from the government every year for having a child.