"How dare you not want to spawn!"

[Greenday]

nitpick... the government pays $1000 per year per child as a tax credit PLUS $3400, make that $3500 starting this year, gross income deduction per child... so really you are getting back $1000 plus $3500 times your tax rate from the government every year for having a child.

In a world that's already become kinda overpopulated, that makes NO sense.

[Flyndaran]

I understand the biological urge to procreate, and the urge to create a melding of yourself and the one you love. I just don't understand why that drive needs to be fullfilled rather than supressed for the greater good.
Unless you believe your genes are golden, then there is no logical reason to create more kids rather than adopt already existing ones.

[AdminAssistant]

Okay, I'm sorry, but a woman or man with kids should not get any special priveleges at the work place over those that don't. "Family friendly" policies are discrimination against single/childless people.

[Flyndaran]

Okay, I'm sorry, but a woman or man with kids should not get any special priveleges at the work place over those that don't. "Family friendly" policies are discrimination against single/childless people.

I think they should... exactly the same as anyone else caring for effective mental/physcial incompetents. For example, if I cared for a sick relative, then I should get the same consideration.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Not to mention the fact that there are people who abuse said privileges. -.- Where I work, parents get first pick at school holiday holidays; not that I care, cuz I don't take my holidays then, but there are a lot of teenagers who are still living with their parents who take holidays during that time who end up having to go thru hell to get one measly week, just cuz some selfish people who have happened to have reproduced have gotten all grabby and greedy. -.-

Oh yeah, and I met my little niece over Christmas; no broodiness at all. Yes, she's cute and smiles adorably. No, I don't want kids of my own; I have all the good stuff with her and none of the bad, the moment she started crying, I just handed her back to her mum or dad.

[pile of monkeys]

What annoys me about all this, in addition to the "you'll change your mind," and "you don't have a soul," and "you're selfish/immature/miserable," all of which I hear with some frequency, is the aforementioned benefits for parents. At every job I've had, parents can come and go as they please, with no regard for actual work completed, for reasons ranging from kid with sniffles to parent/teacher conferences to soccer games to day care's closing early. And yet, the one time I had to make a doctor's appointment that overlapped with my work shift by less than one hour (this office had a 3 month wait for appointments), I told HR ahead of time, arranged to have the person who I was relieving stay until I got there, and I still got written up! I decided that at my next job, I'm going to invent imaginary children so I can make my own schedule, not have to do any work, spend my entire shift on the phone with widdle precious, discuss nothing but the contents of said precious's diapers, and my coworkers will be expected to work all the undesirable shifts and make up for my slack in productivity.

So, yeah, there's bitterness there, but there's a reason for it. Also, I'm sick of people telling me how expensive kids are, and that they should get more "help" (tax breaks, gov't programs, etc.). You made the CHOICE to reproduce. No one should have to foot the bill besides you. If I make the choice to buy a Porsche, knowing that my financial situation is unstable at best, I have no right to expect the government or fellow taxpayers to kick in for my oil changes or garaging fees or fuel charges. It was my choice. To borrow heavily from one of the aforementioned online CF communities: "Can't feed 'em? Don't breed 'em."

[Evandril]

I think they should... exactly the same as anyone else caring for effective mental/physcial incompetents. For example, if I cared for a sick relative, then I should get the same consideration.

'Tis why I like the military system...We're given time to take care of our 'dependants', which is anyone dependant on us for over 1/3 of their care, though does include spouses and other immediate family members.

Even if I didn't have the policies in place backing me up...if one of my people had someone they cared about seriously sick, they are *NOT* thinking about the job, and I'd prefer them to go help out than do something stupid at work...with my job, possibly hurting/killing someone in the process. Can the system be abused? Yep...but there tends to be concequences fairly quickly (I'm within my rights as a supervisor to ask for doctor's notes, and the like, as an example...And if it's not bad enough to go to the doctor, 'tis not bad enough to take time off )

[guywithashovel]

This is an interesting thread. First, I'm going to talk about whether or not I will be having kids in my life. After that, I'm going to say some things that might grate some people's nerves (just because they are minority thoughts).

Throughout my life, I have been back and forth over the issue of having kids. When I was in high school, I sometimes thought I wanted to have kids (like maybe one or two, but not more than that). Throughout my twenties (I just turned 27 a few days ago) I have continued to debate back and forth with myself over whether or not I would ever want to be a parent. I have leaned towards a "no" answer, though I sometimes wonder if I would enjoy being a parent to one or maybe two kids. As I write this, I have pretty much decided that I don't want kids. But hey, that may change. People do change their minds about certain things. Democrats become Republicans (and vice versa). People change their religious beliefs. And people often change their positions on other topics as well (like where they want to live). Maybe I'll decide to have a kid someday, though I suspect that probably won't happen. In fact, the only thing that would really make me consider having kids would be if I got into a relationship with someone I really liked who wanted to have kids.

Okay, now I'm going to get into the part that might get me yelled at.

Ever since I started reading about this topic on the Internet---on message boards and other sites---I have found it quite surprising that the decision not to have kids is such a controversial one to some people. In fact, I'm having a bit of a hard time believing that so many people face such intense criticism over their choices to remain childless, childree, without children, or whatever you wish to call it.

There are several people in my family who have opted not to have kids. This includes my dad's sister as well as a few of my cousins. Most of them are married, and have been for years, and they never face any scrutiny over the choices they have made for their lives. My uncle Jack has three kids---all of whom are currently in their mid to late forties---and none of them have ever had their own kids, and none of them intend to, either. One of his sons married a woman who already had kids, but his other son and his daughter both got married in their early twenties and decided for varied reasons that they weren't going to have children. All of them live normal lives and rarely if ever deal with any negative reactions over their lack of offspring. Also, my uncle Jack and aunt Mary (their parents) are pretty traditional people. They are both quite conservative on many issues, and they are in the pews virtually every time their church opens the door for a service. Likewise, the rest of my family is pretty traditional as well. They're not all like Jack and Mary, but they're not unconvential nonconformists, either.

This is why I find it hard to believe that so many of the people within these "Childless By Choice" and "Childfree" communities are so frequently grilled over their choices regarding childrearing. In all honestly, I believe---and I'm probably going to get blasted for this---that once in a blue moon someone might make a comment to them about whether or not they are going to have kids, and then they have to blow it all out of proportion and act like all the parents of the world are on this huge, worldwide vendetta against childless people. They make it out like everyone and their brother is lined up to berate them for not having kids.

Also, from reading Internet posts from such people (not so much on this site, though), it seems to me that many of these people make their childbearing choices their entire identity (as others have mentioned in this thread), and in doing so, they laud it over other people. For example, if they are sitting at a table with a group of people, and the conversation turns towards children, they'll grimace and say something like, "I don't have kids. There is no way I could ever put up with something that screams, cries, and sh*ts its pants!" (Nevermind the fact that they were once kids, and they probably did these things, too). Or, if they should be at work or at a get-together and someone has their young child with them, they might make a big deal out of the noise and messes the kids makes, and say things similiar to the remarks made in my hypothetial conversation above. They also get ticked off if they go to a store or restaurant and come into contact with fussy kids, as if parents are just supposed to hide their kids under bushels until they are eighteen. Now, if you're at an upscale restaurant, I can understand getting a little irked, but if you're at McDonalds or Denny's, then you have to expect that kind of stuff. Sometimes kids get fussy and act up, even if the parents are good parents who provide proper teaching and discipline.

Well, these are my thoughts on this matter. They may be unpopular, but they are what they are. Good day.

[Lace Neil Singer]

It's not abuse, that's why. At least speaking for myself; it's more well meant idiocy from friends and aquaintences who just won't accept that there are people around who don't want to breed. There are also older people who believe that since two people may have been together for a long time, they should start thinking about marriage and children, in that order. While my boyf and I have discussed marriage, that is far in the future for when we wish to cohabit and make such a huge commitment to each other. It is not something to be expressed lightly.

They also get ticked off if they go to a store or restaurant and come into contact with fussy kids, as if parents are just supposed to hide their kids under bushels until they are eighteen. Now, if you're at an upscale restaurant, I can understand getting a little irked, but if you're at McDonalds or Denny's, then you have to expect that kind of stuff. But sometimes kids get fussy and act up, even if the parents are good parents who provide proper teaching and discipline.

I know it's a radical concept, but there is something you can do to avoid ruining people's nights with your offspring's fussiness and crying; it's called HIRING A BABYSITTER. Either that, or you go out at a reasonable time, ie midday to six pm, and then go home and put your toddler to bed. No-one is saying parents have to lock their kids in the attic til they're 18, just show everyone else a little care and respect. Just as the parents don't want to see the childfree swearing, fighting and yacking on their mobiles; we don't want to hear their children shrieking, talking loudly (for example, thru a movie) or running around manically. A little respect on both sides goes a long way.

[Sylvia727]

I should think a reasonable time frame would be closer to 8 am to 8 pm. Going into an IHOP at 7:30 pm and seeing children there eating dinner is hardly unusual. I honestly think that people who complain about normal childlike behavior are no different than any other entitlement whore. If one goes out into a public place, than other people are going to impose on one. I personally find an invasion of my personal bubble to be far worse than an invasion of my ear drums. Do I have the right to complain about crowds? Of course not. It's normal behavior to jostle someone in a crowd. Another part of the problem is that child-haters don't know normal childlike behavior, and they have the same expectations of a five-year-old that they do of a thirty-five-year-old. A good parent teaches their children appropriate behavior, but every child learns at their own pace.

I personally don't see anything different with remaining childless or remaining single. It doesn't even register on my radar. To me, those family members are "extras" - they get added onto you, they don't come standard. I do look askance at any twenty-something who makes declarative statements about the rest of their life, some 50 or 60 years, but I don't see a difference between saying "So-and-so is the love of my life!" and "I'm never having kids!".

[DesignFox]

I only resent parents bringing out their young children to adult events, or to adult venues, especially late at night.

If I'm in the food store, especially during the day or early evening, I fully expect parents to be there with children. I mean, you can't possibly hire a babysitter every time you want to leave the house.

If I go to family friendly venues, family movies etc. I'm gonna anticipate the presence of young children. I'm going with the expectation that one or more of them may have a melt down, and I am prepared to deal with that. This stuff happens. It's part of the learning and socialization process.

But if you bring an infant, toddler or young child to a rated R movie? Yea, I'm gonna get pissed.

Bring your kid to the bar/restaurant after 10 at night? Yea, I'm gonna be irritated.

Bring your 8 year old to the very adult themed concert arena? Yea, I'm gonna look at you like you're an asshole.

I think it's just a matter or respect and common courtesy.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Exactly. And Sylvia, my timeframe was an EXAMPLE, so no need to get ones knickers in a knot. Some people might want to eat lunch at home and take the kiddies out to dinner, or stay at home for dinner and take the kiddies out to lunch.

It's when, as DesignFox says, you've got small toddlers in a restaurant or pub at around 10pm that it's not reasonable. Especially since very small kids should be in bed and asleep at that time. Their preferences take presidence over yours; their right to go to bed at a reasonable time and to not be dragged around bars, restaurants, cinemas etc after what would normally be considered their age group's normal bed time is far more important than your right to go out and get drunk. That right was sacrificed when you chose to have kids, along with many others; you got other rights in return, sure, but you should not force your kids to fit in with your lifestyle when it's the other way round.

Example; I tend to go to the cinema on Sunday night. That timeframe is chosen cuz there are going to be fewer kids around. I would love to go during Saturday day, but if I do, I know that there are going to be loads of kids. So, I adapt. I go to the cinema at a time where there are going to be less children, cuz of it being a schoolday the next day. It's reasonable to suppose that a mum with kids who wants to see an 18 rated movie should leave the kids at her parents, or hire a babysitter, rather than taking said kids to said 18 rated movie and not only giving her kids nightmares, but also ruining several people's night out.

[guywithashovel]

If you guys reexamine my previous post, you should come across a part where I said that it's understandable to get upset if there is a screaming, fussy kid in an upscale restaurant. This can be generalized to movies and other situations where quietness is expected. I actually do grit my teeth if I'm in a movie theatre and the movie is interrupted by a crying infant---though that doesn't happen very often.

But if you're at a grocery store, a mall, or a fast food/casual dining restaurant, it's unrealistic and unreasonable to expect not to come into contact with young kids. Heck, if my mom never took my sister and me to McDonalds or the local mall when we were little, she probably wouldn't have left the house between 1982 and 1987.

[pile of monkeys]

This is why I find it hard to believe that so many of the people within these "Childless By Choice" and "Childfree" communities are so frequently grilled over their choices regarding childrearing. In all honestly, I believe---and I'm probably going to get blasted for this---that once in a blue moon someone might make a comment to them about whether or not they are going to have kids, and then they have to blow it all out of proportion and act like all the parents of the world are on this huge, worldwide vendetta against childless people. They make it out like everyone and their brother is lined up to berate them for not having kids.

I can only speak for myself, of course, but after my husband and I got married, we got the usual deluge of "when are you going to start having kids?" questions. I hate that question. There's no good way to answer it. So I'm generally honest, but brief, and say, "We're actually not having kids." Depending who it is, I may elaborate and say we're considering adopting another dog, but usually not. So I get "grilled over [my] choices" after answering a very personal question posed to me. If they might not like the answer, why ask the question? I can say, though, in my experience, I have had many many conversations with many many people regarding my not having children, and I can't honestly think of any that I started. Even in the usual small talk: "So, do you have kids?" "Nope." "Oh, gonna start trying soon?" "Nope." And then the questioning begins. And, yeah, if someone asks, I'm going to answer. You ask an invasive question, you might get an answer you weren't expecting.

Also, from reading Internet posts from such people (not so much on this site, though), it seems to me that many of these people make their childbearing choices their entire identity (as others have mentioned in this thread), and in doing so, they laud it over other people.

I find this works both ways. Parents often make their childbearing choices their entire identity, and laud it over people. As I mentioned in my last post in this thread, parents receive all sorts of preferential treatment in many workplaces and many different areas of society (government assistance, charity aid, tax breaks, etc), so I don't think it's unreasonable that there's some bitterness there. I wouldn't call myself militant, though, and I don't think the parents of the world are out to get me, but the conversations do happen, and I don't generally instigate them, and if someone insults or degrades a choice I've made, sure I'll defend myself. I get cranky when someone insults my dog, or my car, or takes exception to the fact that I don't like Dunkin Donuts coffee. It's not limited to reproductive status.

[guywithashovel]

I can only speak for myself, of course, but after my husband and I got married, we got the usual deluge of "when are you going to start having kids?" questions. I hate that question. There's no good way to answer it.

If that has been your experience, then I'm not going to question it. In my earlier post, I was just saying that I have not experienced any of the questioning, and neither have any of the childless people in my family. I just thought it was odd that I would get dumped in the middle of a bubble where no one seems to care if you have kids or not, while everyone else seems to live around people who want everyone to have at least six kids. I'm usually not so lucky to be the one who has it well while everyone else is stuck is a dirtpile.

But anyway, if you say that people bother you about it, then that sucks, and I have no reason to not believe you.