"How dare you not want to spawn!"

[Boozy]

I just thought it was odd that I would get dumped in the middle of a bubble where no one seems to care if you have kids or not, while everyone else seems to live around people who want everyone to have at least six kids.

Actually, I think I live in the bubble too.

I've had lots of off-hand comments from people, but they are usually just conversational one-offs. For example, my co-worker was telling me the other day about how she and her husband want a big family. She asked me at that point, "Do you want kids?" Clearly, she was just looking for me to say something with the sentiment of: "I understand the appeal of kids, so I understand what you are saying." She wasn't pressuring me to have kids or even being overly nosy, in my opinion.

There's a difference between being asked about your family planning (Do you want kids? How many kids do you want? etc.) and being made to feel wrong about your decision. Personally, I'm sick of getting asked about when my husband and I are going to have children, but when I choose to say, "We're not" I have literally not had one negative reaction. Most people say something positive, like "Well, good for you. There's a lot of other stuff to do in life."

I have a theory that the "bubble" depends on your geographical area. Families in my area of Canada are are small. Specifically, my city has two ground-breaking universities and one of the most innovative tech companies in the world. University degrees are the norm and not the exception. Having children is not considered the pinnacle of achievement around here.

I strongly believe that if I still lived in my hometown, a farming community only about 45 minutes away, I'd be inundated with judgmental comments about my childlessness. Mothers are more valued than career-women in that culture.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I live in a small village where everyone seems to consider everyone else's business their business. Sometimes, that's a good thing; other times, such as when someone feels they have every right to quiz me about my childfree existance, it's a pain in the arse. I've also had an SC assume that just cuz I don't have kids, that I don't have a family (she basically threw it out left of centre while I was brightly chatting to her about Christmas plans, as I am meant to do on a checkout; I put a guilt trip on her by saying I was infertile.) which is bollocks as I not only did not arrive on this earth via stork, so I have parents, but I also have brothers and also a sister in law and niece, so it's pretty stupid to say that I don't have a family and therefore I shouldn't mind about working over Christmas.

[Sylvia727]

Specifically, my city has two ground-breaking universities and one of the most innovative tech companies in the world. University degrees are the norm and not the exception. Having children is not considered the pinnacle of achievement around here.

I strongly believe that if I still lived in my hometown, a farming community only about 45 minutes away, I'd be inundated with judgmental comments about my childlessness. Mothers are more valued than career-women in that culture.

Ironically, my sister is considering leaving college to get married and have children. She is inundated with judgmental comments about her plans, as if earning $60k is worth more than raising four children. My sister has never been cut out for the white collar, cubicle farm career. She has always been active and hands-on, and she has wanted to be a mother since she was old enough to rock a baby doll. It makes perfect sense and is in keeping with her character for her to start her career of homemaker now, and yet she is judged harshly for choosing children over a "real" career. One classmate misunderstood, and thought she was leaving to care for a current pregnancy. "Just get an abortion! Don't throw your life away over a kid." My sister was furious. The classmate belittled both her opinions and her judgment.

[Ghel]

I used to get these sorts of questions when my husband and I first got married. It bothered me for the longest time. I still get the usual "any kids?" when I meet new people. A simple "no" is usually fine, and we go on to other topics. I used to tell people that the hubby has 3 kids from a previous marriage, so we weren't going to have any of our own (leaving out that none of them lived with us). My mother finally, after about 5 years, stopped asking when we were going to give her grandchildren. That pissed me off far more than the new acquaintances asking.

I've known since I was about 18 that I didn't want kids. I haven't got the patience for it. I enjoy my freedom too much - I can take off for the weekend any time I want, without having to worry about who's going to take care of the kids.

But on the other hand, I really respect and admire people who truly want to have children - those who have thought about it and made a conscious decision.

[Boozy]

One classmate misunderstood, and thought she was leaving to care for a current pregnancy. "Just get an abortion! Don't throw your life away over a kid." My sister was furious. The classmate belittled both her opinions and her judgment.

That is one of the most offensive things she could have said (regardless of how one feels about abortion).

I fail to see how bearing and raising another human being could possibly be considered "throwing your life away." For the women who choose to be mothers, it's usually an intensely rewarding experience.

[blas87]

I'm kind of going a little backwards here, but people have the audacity to call childfree people "selfish"?

What's selfish, to ME, are those idiots who breed just to have an accessory. How many people do we see out in public with children, and their kids are nothing to them but like a little dog or something that matches their purse or their vehicle?

Honest to Pete. It's more selfish to just want to go along with everyone else and have a kid just to fit in, just because "everyone else does it" than to not want to have kids for your own personal reasons, however vain they may be.

[guywithashovel]

I'm kind of going a little backwards here, but people have the audacity to call childfree people "selfish"?

During the time I've spent on online message forums, I have seen a few postings from people who say that they think remaining childless by choice is selfish. But honestly, I've never heard anyone in real life say that. I'm not saying that no one has ever said that in real life. I'm just saying I've never heard it. In fact, most of the people I've come across couldn't care less how many kids someone has, if any---providing, of course, that they take proper care of any kids they do have.

I think most of the people who make a big deal out of are people who come from large families. I'm talking about families where the husband and wife both have numerous siblings, and that husband and wife proceeded to have several children, and then those children all grew up to have at least three kids, and so on. I"m sure that many people who come from such environments would be a little bewildered at someone who chose not to have any children, just like I am quite bewildered that anyone would be disturbed over someone's choice to not have childen, since several couples in my family are childess at their own volition.

[blas87]

I think it's extremely selfish especially when people have children when they cannot afford to have them. If you can't even bring in enough income to support yourself, what makes you think you can support a kid? Even with all the government handouts, you'll still struggle to the point of insanity. Oh, but of course, it's your right to have children and make a family.....and I was being selfish by waiting until I was old enough, mature enough, and financially stable enough...or that I just decided I'd rather not have them.

[Slytovhand]

I wonder if the term 'selfish' can really apply to having kids... even lots of them.. for the simple reason that it's what genetics and hormones tells people to do.

[Ghel]

I wonder if the term 'selfish' can really apply to having kids... even lots of them.. for the simple reason that it's what genetics and hormones tells people to do.

I have to disagree with you here. Genetics and hormones don't tell people to have kids. They tell people to have sex, and to raise the children that are the natural result of that sex.

Natural selection saves those genes that make it more likely for organisms (in this case, humans) to survive long enough to have offspring that survive long enough to have offspring of their own, thereby ensuring that those genes are passed on to future generations. Things like hormones are selected for because they encourage people to have sex. And people who have sex are more likely to have children, to which they pass on their hormone-creating genes.

Now, that doesn't mean that we have to follow nature's instructions in this. This thread is all about people who have chosen to ignore their genetic programming and not have children. There's also plenty of examples of people who have chosen not to have sex or have abandoned or killed their offspring in defiance of what their genetics would have them do.

We are thinking beings. Well, most of us anyway. We human beings can choose when to have children, how many to have, or not to have any at all. If this is selfish, then I gladly accept that label.

[fireheart17]

I'm kind of going a little backwards here, but people have the audacity to call childfree people "selfish"?

What's selfish, to ME, are those idiots who breed just to have an accessory. How many people do we see out in public with children, and their kids are nothing to them but like a little dog or something that matches their purse or their vehicle?

Honest to Pete. It's more selfish to just want to go along with everyone else and have a kid just to fit in, just because "everyone else does it" than to not want to have kids for your own personal reasons, however vain they may be.

I agree. And worse still, in Australia we had a thing called the Baby Bonus, or as some of my workmates nicknamed it, "the Plasma Bonus." If you had a baby, you were given $5000 by the government. Many couples instead used it simply to buy Plasma TV's. Eventually, they changed it, so now it's given out in $1000 installments and is also means-tested (don't know what the max is). But it hasn't stopped couples (especially in low-income areas) from squeezing out a few to claim said baby bonus.

I have to disagree with you here. Genetics and hormones don't tell people to have kids. They tell people to have sex, and to raise the children that are the natural result of that sex.

Natural selection saves those genes that make it more likely for organisms (in this case, humans) to survive long enough to have offspring that survive long enough to have offspring of their own, thereby ensuring that those genes are passed on to future generations. Things like hormones are selected for because they encourage people to have sex. And people who have sex are more likely to have children, to which they pass on their hormone-creating genes.

Now, that doesn't mean that we have to follow nature's instructions in this. This thread is all about people who have chosen to ignore their genetic programming and not have children. There's also plenty of examples of people who have chosen not to have sex or have abandoned or killed their offspring in defiance of what their genetics would have them do.

We are thinking beings. Well, most of us anyway. We human beings can choose when to have children, how many to have, or not to have any at all. If this is selfish, then I gladly accept that label.

Again, agreed. My instincts tell me "OK, find a man, settle down, get married etc." What they don't tell me is "Find a man, settle down, get knocked up because the world wants me to."

[Seshat]

But on the other hand, I really respect and admire people who truly want to have children - those who have thought about it and made a conscious decision.

My brother and my sister in law are natural parents. LOVE children, love the task of raising children to become sane, sensible, competent, thoughtful adults. Would be equally happy with the task of raising a disabled child to live as satisfying a life as possible. Except for the inevitable grief of the kid having a disability, of course.

If they had the money - heck, if *I* had the money - they'd be raising their two, and as many adoptive/foster kids as they had the energy for. And doing a damn fine job.

To make things even better, their kids have four child-loving, natural-parent grandparents.

They do a good job, and I applaud them. And live half the country away from them. I am NOT a parent type. Never have been, never will be. I'll be an aunt, and I'll be a caring aunt.

But no chance in hell that I'd ever be a good parent.

Even if we discount my horrible genes, I should never be a parent. If anything happens to my brother and my sister in law, the family conference will be verrrry interesting. The grandparents are rather aged and may not be able to do the job, and my sister in law's brother is also a natural non-parent.

Parents who know it's a verb as well as a known, and consciously, deliberately choose it, and do their best? Great deal of respect.

Non-parents who know 'parent' is a verb, know they're not suited to it, and provide their contribution to society in other ways? Equal respect.

People who have kids without properly caring for them? Great deal of DISrespect. Especially if the kids suffer for it.

The latter type who diss me because I don't have kids?

[Boozy]

Again, agreed. My instincts tell me "OK, find a man, settle down, get married etc." What they don't tell me is "Find a man, settle down, get knocked up because the world wants me to."

If you're a woman, and you're around 30 and haven't had kids yet....there is actually a very good chance that your genes will tell you to get pregnant. Many women can't replace that urge with more sex and babysitting.

I'm not saying it's an irresistible urge. But it's definitely there.

[Slytovhand]

Thanks for the back-up Boozy!

And yes, I'm still sticking with kids... that's what menopause is about (and also, you'll notice the sex urge decreases when pregnant.. or after having said kids). So, urge to have the sex for the primary idea of having the kids - but the 2 are related.

Oh, I'm not saying that's a good enough reason... I'm definitely not inclined to have kids, and I also have no respect for those who are stupid enough to just have kids 'cos they want to' with no thought involved as to how they will be raised.

Btw, FireHeart...I don't think you're instincts actually want you to get 'married'. Find the right male person and hold onto him so you can have his kids and keep other nasty female types away from him.. sure. But marriage is just a construct we've made and the hormones haven't quite got that one yet (I hope!)

[Ghel]

If you're a woman, and you're around 30 and haven't had kids yet....there is actually a very good chance that your genes will tell you to get pregnant. Many women can't replace that urge with more sex and babysitting.

I'm not saying it's an irresistible urge. But it's definitely there.

I used to get that urge every time there was a baby around. Then I'd hold the baby for about 5 minutes, until it started getting heavy or cranky, then the feeling would go away. I'd hand the baby back to the mother, and be done with it.

Funny thing is, I'm in my 30s now, and the urge to have children is gone. Completely. I'm just afraid it's going to come back as I approach menopause.

Btw, FireHeart...I don't think you're instincts actually want you to get 'married'. Find the right male person and hold onto him so you can have his kids and keep other nasty female types away from him.. sure. But marriage is just a construct we've made and the hormones haven't quite got that one yet (I hope!)

Yeah, marriage is simply a way to keep track of bloodlines and inheritance. At least, that was the original reason. I don't think genetics or hormones have caught up with it yet.