how dare you not have pride

[Flyndaran]

I simply say that I feel good about my successes, especially the hard won ones. I just never feel the need to use the word, "pride". It has too many aggressive uses for my tastes.

[RootedPhoenix]

I simply say that I feel good about my successes, especially the hard won ones. I just never feel the need to use the word, "pride". It has too many aggressive uses for my tastes.

I agree with this. I don't feel the need to be loud about my happiness in my successes. My dislike of being the center of attention doesn't mean I'm not happy.

You want a performance of glee? Buy a ticket to a concert of some kind.

[Slytovhand]

don't even get me started on those people... that is one of the reasons I stay so closeted is because of the people like that setting a bad stereotype (and I know, the only way to fight those stereotypes is for more people like me who don't follow those stereotypes to come out so people see what most of us really are like... but...)

Start...

[smileyeagle1021]

Start...

if I must

I hate these stereotypical asses with a passion. I've had at least one person tell me that they were glad they knew me as a friend before they knew I was gay... why, because had they known I was gay first they would have expected me to act like one of the flag carrying pride marchers. Somewhat shallow I know, but I agree with him... I wouldn't like to make friends with too many of the flag carriers either. I've even heard one of those guys make a comment about how every guy is secretly at least bi and you should go ahead and hit on anyone because, after all, they really do appreciate it and just aren't willing to admit it publicly... umm, what the hell... by that standard you shouldn't mind women hitting on you, because after all, all guys are bi... fucktard. It's hard enough getting straight people to respect us when we aren't trying to "convert" them. Oh, please don't go on and on about how marriage is a right... the rights attached to marriage are definitely a right, but let's not cut off our nose to spite our face, civil unions would provide the same rights without getting the religious rights panties in a twist... the idea of being drug behind a truck by a pissed off Christian who is upset that I'm trying to steal his marriage doesn't appeal to me... pick your fucking battles. For that matter, I can't stand the people who say "we can't get married, but that's ok, we like to have sex too much anyway"... um, no... I personally would like to have a stable committed relationship... just as many gays want that as straights do, just as there are straights who want nothing but sex. So thank you jackasses for making people see my orientation before they see me.

[anriana]

if I must

I hate these stereotypical asses with a passion. I've had at least one person tell me that they were glad they knew me as a friend before they knew I was gay... why, because had they known I was gay first they would have expected me to act like one of the flag carrying pride marchers. Somewhat shallow I know

....

So thank you jackasses for making people see my orientation before they see me.

That's not shallowness on your friend's part, it's prejudice. And it's offensive for you to say that it's the fault of "stereotypical asses" that bigoted people assume all gay people are like the ones they've met.

[smileyeagle1021]

And it's offensive for you to say that it's the fault of "stereotypical asses" that bigoted people assume all gay people are like the ones they've met.

is it? I would be interested to know how many people struggle with their sexuality because they realize they are attracted to the same sex and wonder if that means they have to be like the stereotype now. I'll freely admit that it took me a long time to come to terms with my sexuality because I didn't want to be the next cast member on Friends, I wanted to be me. And I have no doubt that a lot of people who follow the stereotype do so for no other reason than "well, I'm gay, that's how gay people act"
And one doesn't have to be bigoted to judge someone based on previous experience with someone similar. So far almost every Domincan in their early 20s that I've met has enjoyed going out clubbing, listening to loud rap music, and are good at playing dominoes... now I know that not every Domincan is the same, but if I meet one the odds that I can connect with a discussion on dominoes is pretty good (because I don't like rap or clubbing). Now, apply the same thing to the idea of using past experience to make a good guess on what people are interested in... he and I would have nothing to discuss because he'd pretend to be interested in gay pride stuff because he'd think that's what I'm interested and I'd pretend to be interested for the sake of conversation and neither of us would have spoken again. The system works great in that it helps immediately break the ice... the problem being that it is still best guess and it doesn't always work.

[AFPheonix]

Of course, the right answer is just to be you, everyone else be damned. You are still stereotyping, and that's wrong. You may be meeting Dominicans who like similar things simply because that's what you've been exposed to. To extrapolate the preferences of an entire population based on a few people who like dominoes is flawed statistics.
It's just as flawed to assume that other closeted gays have the same mentality as you. Are there some with your thought process? Probably. Are there quite a few who are afraid of the stigma from their family? More likely.

[smileyeagle1021]

You are still stereotyping, and that's wrong.

not to threadjack my own thread... stereotyping isn't inherently wrong. As long as you aren't using negative stereotyping (ie, you aren't going off of old wives tales or rumors but off of actual observations and things of positive nature, such as common interests) it can be a useful tool on how to start a conversation. Using a completely ethnicity free example, say someone walks into the hotel wearing a trucker's hat and I can see a truck outside I can use stereotyping to know that I should offer the guest a trucker's rate and a good conversation starter would be to ask them which routes they normally run and ask if they are interested in photography... why would I ask that, because I know without a doubt that if they are a trucker they are almost ensured to enjoy talking about what they've seen driving and many take pictures while driving.
Moving into a more controversial area, I can see someone walk in carrying a scripture case commonly carried by Mormons and feel somewhat comfortable asking what Ward they belong to. I know that I talk about Family Home Evening or ask about who they are looking forward to hearing at the next General Conference.
The problem is when people are unable or unwilling to recognize when the stereotype is wrong. Also the problem is when people are using negative stereotypes as an excuse not to meet someone rather than using positive stereotypes as a tool to find common ground.

[anriana]

is it? I would be interested to know how many people struggle with their sexuality because they realize they are attracted to the same sex and wonder if that means they have to be like the stereotype now.

I doubt that is the primary reason most queer people struggle with their sexuality.

I'll freely admit that it took me a long time to come to terms with my sexuality because I didn't want to be the next cast member on Friends

? I thought they were all straight and heteronormative as could be.

And one doesn't have to be bigoted to judge someone based on previous experience with someone similar. So far almost every Domincan in their early 20s that I've met has enjoyed going out clubbing, listening to loud rap music, and are good at playing dominoes... now I know that not every Domincan is the same, but if I meet one the odds that I can connect with a discussion on dominoes is pretty good (because I don't like rap or clubbing).

That's still being prejudiced. Granted, "I bet he likes Dominos" is far less harmful than "I bet he's a flaming flamer, /sigh."

Now, apply the same thing to the idea of using past experience to make a good guess on what people are interested in... he and I would have nothing to discuss because he'd pretend to be interested in gay pride stuff because he'd think that's what I'm interested and I'd pretend to be interested for the sake of conversation and neither of us would have spoken again. The system works great in that it helps immediately break the ice... the problem being that it is still best guess and it doesn't always work.

So he would be prejudice and unable to see beyond your sexuality and you would be socially meek and that is all the fault of flaming pride marchers?

not to threadjack my own thread... stereotyping isn't inherently wrong. As long as you aren't using negative stereotyping (ie, you aren't going off of old wives tales or rumors but off of actual observations and things of positive nature, such as common interests) it can be a useful tool on how to start a conversation.

What part of your rant against flamers was positive?

The problem is when people are unable or unwilling to recognize when the stereotype is wrong. Also the problem is when people are using negative stereotypes as an excuse not to meet someone rather than using positive stereotypes as a tool to find common ground.

Are you being deliberately ironic?

[Boozy]

stereotyping isn't inherently wrong.

I think AFP was saying that stereotyping is wrong in the sense of that it leads us to invalid conclusions based on narrow personal experiences. Not "wrong" in the moral sense.

I would agree with you that stereotyping doesn't always have to be morally wrong, but I think it's important to recognize the limitations of our pre-conceived notions.

[Evandril]

I think AFP was saying that stereotyping is wrong in the sense of that it leads us to invalid conclusions based on narrow personal experiences. Not "wrong" in the moral sense.

I would agree with you that stereotyping doesn't always have to be morally wrong, but I think it's important to recognize the limitations of our pre-conceived notions.

The one thing people forget about with stereotypes is they are there for a reason...Either because people made up 'facts' to 'prove' why someone was better/worse than someone else...Or because it was something common within the observed group. Prejudice, in and of itself, is not bad...It's just the misuse of it that makes it wrong. If you are going to fill a job as a fire fighter, picking people who are strong enough to do the job, and not letting others apply because they do not fit the standards is prejudice...Just justified. Same idea with a job as a 'Hooters' waitress going to an attractive female over a unattractive male...it's part of the job, and therefor justified. Is it right to say all of 'x' group are this way, because all the ones I've met are? No. Is it right to say 'Since all of the people of 'x' group I've met are this way, it is probable most of 'x' group are similar'? IMO, yes. I've yet to meet an intelligent neonazi, though I'm sure they exist...but if I meet someone who's claiming to be a neonazi, I'm not going to expect intelligence

[Rapscallion]

The worrying thing is that I've seen neonazi websites, and some of them are dangerously intelligent. You don't have to worry about the knuckledraggers who join in with, "Yeah, righ, hur hur," sort of comments, but there are a few who can lead such morons with very careful word choice and devious arguments.

Never met any, mind, that I know of. Thread hijack over.

Rapscallion

[Shards]

Smiley, I only have one problem with your logic, and that's at the very beginning of this thread. It seems like you view having pride in something you are as wrong. In many cases, I can see that, I can understand that. However, I would argue there are some cases where that is well justified. For example, I'm proud to be an American, all that required of me was getting pushed out by my birth mother. I belong to a family in which three of my four grandparents served in the second world war, all of whom were oversees, even the female (she was an army nurse), and I'm damn proud to come from that family. I'm proud of being a graduate of one of the highest ranked high schools in the country, and I can tell you right now that barely took any more effort than showing up, and sometimes I didn't even do that.

What I'm trying to say is that although you should have more pride in things you work for (I'm going to be very, very proud when I graduate boot camp), there's nothing inherently wrong with being proud of what you are.

As to the current line of discussion, I agree with you completely. There is no possible way to form a first impression of a person without relying on some stereotyping. It doesn't matter if it's his clothes, his way of speaking, the things he's carrying or the color of his skin, when you first meet a man you won't know enough about him to form an opinion without pulling in assumptions from things you notice. These may well be easily changed as you learn more about him, but everyone does it, at least at first. The problem is when people either A) Aren't willing to admit that they do it to some degree, or B) Refuse to change their opinion of you as they learn more. That tends to be the problem group, the ones who see you once, and decide who you are and will never give you a chance to prove them wrong.

[Slytovhand]

The worrying thing is that I've seen neonazi websites, and some of them are dangerously intelligent. You don't have to worry about the knuckledraggers who join in with, "Yeah, righ, hur hur," sort of comments, but there are a few who can lead such morons with very careful word choice and devious arguments.

Never met any, mind, that I know of. Thread hijack over.

Rapscallion

One of my proudest moments to date (so, not a complete threadjack ), is when, after about 3 hours of arguement/debate, I made a neo-nazi get up and leave the table because he couldn't deal with my shit anymore

He was using a stack of arguments, some I agreed with, others I didn't, and since I didn't agree with his conclusions (because they were illogical - or lacking information, etc).

[AFPheonix]

I think AFP was saying that stereotyping is wrong in the sense of that it leads us to invalid conclusions based on narrow personal experiences. Not "wrong" in the moral sense.

I would agree with you that stereotyping doesn't always have to be morally wrong, but I think it's important to recognize the limitations of our pre-conceived notions.

Essentially, yes. I was actually pretty amused that the person who posted the OP was so offended that he was being stereotyped then proceeded to defend the very practice that he was being supposedly oppressed by.
The moral of the story? Take people as they are, not what you think they should be just because they happen to have some gender preference, ethnicity, or what have you.