how dare you not have pride

[smileyeagle1021]

the OP was so offended that he was being stereotyped then proceeded to defend the very practice that he was being supposedly oppressed by.

The difference being that I was offended by people using the stereotype to judge me without knowing me, what I'm defending is using it as a means of guessing what common interests you might have to be able to make a connection to start to know someone.

[AFPheonix]

...But you're still doing the exact same thing. There's really not a difference, no matter how you spin it. Ask people about themselves, don't assume that they like something just because you met a person or two who share some characteristic who happen to like some such thing.

[smileyeagle1021]

...But you're still doing the exact same thing. There's really not a difference, no matter how you spin it. Ask people about themselves, don't assume that they like something just because you met a person or two who share some characteristic who happen to like some such thing.

what's wrong with instead of just using a blanket "tell me about yourself" which comes off as kind of creepy going up to someone, making a guess about what they are interested in based on stereotyping from previous experience and saying "hey, you wouldn't happen to be interested in photography would you"... then they either say "yes, how did you know" and you can say something like, "well, you remind me of a friend of mine and they liked photography, what kind of camera do you normally use" or "no, why do you ask" and you can say something like, "well, you remind me of a friend of mine, they liked photography, thought you might too, what are you interested in though?"
Seems like a good technique to find out what people are interested in (especially when you guess right) and to start conversation... where's the negative other than the stigma attached to the word?

[AFPheonix]

Because then you have no right to complain when someone asks you if you're into doing Gay Pride parades just because they had a friend who liked to rollerskate in them in bikini bottoms.
You can find out about people juuuuust fine without thinking "oh hey, you have dark skin, you must like dice!" to yourself. You can start with the context in which you are meeting them, where you're meeting them, etc.

[Boozy]

I gotta say, I agree with AFP here. I have never had trouble getting to know someone, and I've never had to resort to sharing potentially offensive stereotypes to do it.

It is remarkably easy to find out what someone's interests are. Why ask a Dominican if they like playing dominoes when you could just as easily ask "What did you do this weekend?"

[smileyeagle1021]

Why ask a Dominican if they like playing dominoes when you could just as easily ask "What did you do this weekend?"

if you have a set of dominoes though you can always ask, hey, I've got a set, do you want to play... knowing they're likely to say yes...

...big difference between that and "hey, you must be a flamer who's whole life is defined by waving flags and sucking dick"

[anriana]

if you have a set of dominoes though you can always ask, hey, I've got a set, do you want to play... knowing they're likely to say yes...

...big difference between that and "hey, you must be a flamer who's whole life is defined by waving flags and sucking dick"

So the stereotyping that you approve of and direct towards other people is okay, but stereotyping that you don't approve of and that other people direct towards you isn't?

[smileyeagle1021]

So the stereotyping that you approve of and direct towards other people is okay, but stereotyping that you don't approve of and that other people direct towards you isn't?

so apparently then I'm the only one who sees nothing wrong with looking at someone and saying "hey, I bet he likes (going back to the example) dominoes, maybe I should ask him to play a game" which while not necessarily positive definitely isn't harmful... to be honest, I would be thrilled if someone looking at me said "gee, he looks kind of like a geek, I'll bet he's seen the new Star Trek trailer" rather than the standard "oh, I'll just ask about the NFL game, everyone knows about the NFL"... why, because Star Trek does interest me a hell of a lot more than the NFL... hell, even if they said "hey, he looks kind of like a geek, I'll bet he likes dungeons and dragons"...they guessed wrong, I'm not interested in dungeons and dragons, but then again the fall back of talk about weekend sports because everyone likes weekend sports didn't interest me either, so no harm no foul... hell it could even lead to a better understanding if my response is something like "no, not really interested in dungeons and dragons, I've always been more into sci-fi than fantasy" (yes, there is a difference).
So no, I have absolutely no problem with people stereotyping me in the way I've argued can be productive way of breaking the ice. What I have a problem with is people using stereotypes as an excuse to not even try to break the ice... the people who say "gay guys don't do anything but suck on dicks and wave rainbow flags... there's no way we could have anything in common"... or hell even less inflammatory "he looks like a geek, obviously all he cares about is dungeons and dragons and I hate dungeons and dragons, why even bother talking to him"
I may be the only one to see the difference, but frankly, I don't give a shit anymore... public opinion is that I'm a hypocrite because I'm willing to use the same tool that has caused me suffering for something at least approaching positive... why bother arguing the point any further. You all have your opinions and I have mine.

[Shards]

What Smiley is trying to say, and I agree with him here, is that using a positive or at least neutral stereotype to try to get to know someone is OK, as long as you're willing to accept that you were wrong if that is the case, whereas using a negative and potentially harmful stereotype is not OK, especially when you refuse to take 'that idea doesn't reflect people like me' as an answer.

[AFPheonix]

I see what he's trying to say, I really do. I just happen to disagree with it. I imagine the people stereotyping him don't think they're using a negative stereotype, and yet he's offended by it just the same. Why would another person be any different?

The old adage "assuming makes an ass out of u and me" really is true.

[Shards]

I have never met anyone who would be insulted by someone asking them if they wanted to play a certain game, and although I'm sure you can find someone who would, they're probably the same kind of people who would walk into a KFC and then get indignant when the cashier asked if they wanted chicken.

Smiley's complaint is something you can be insulted by without being a prick, I wouldn't say being asked if you wanted to play dominoes falls into that category.

[Evandril]

Another big point that's being missed...He's saying it's something 'possible', not something 'certain'...Ie, he's not going to go 'Ok, since I *know* you like dominos, lets play', which I could see being offensive. Instead he's offering that as something likely, and is willing to be easily proven 'wrong' if they don't.

*ANY* salesperson worth a darn uses sterotyping, it's the easiest way to make sales...You look at a person, and based on what you see, you change how you talk with them...and modify it based on what you notice talking to them. Without any sterotyping, you'd give the exact same speech to everyone...and lose a good third of your sales.

People have FAR too many things about them that need to be 'discovered' to limit yourself to not making any assumptions...Just realize they ARE only guesses, and treat them as such.

[anriana]

so apparently then I'm the only one who sees nothing wrong with looking at someone and saying "hey, I bet he likes (going back to the example) dominoes, maybe I should ask him to play a game" which while not necessarily positive definitely isn't harmful...

But that's not the thought process you said you use - you look at someone and think "Hey, he's Dominican, I bet he likes Dominoes" the same way that annoying people look at my partner and decide to talk to him about martial arts movies. It doesn't matter if you consider your racial stereotypes to be positive - they are still racial stereotypes.

[Slytovhand]

Everyone stereotypes! In every single human interaction when you perceive a new person (and non-human, too, I suppose... Gee, I wonder if that bear over there will get pissed if I walk too close to it's cubs... like all the other one's I've met )

At the very least, don't the majority of us assume/presume that the person we're about to talk to can hear us? Don't the clothes reflect something about us??

I'm sort of in that boat at the moment with a co-worker. Tats, piercings, likes to get drunk, loves clubs (well, for dark metal and hip hop) etc...absolutely refuses to touch drugs! Any drugs! Even though her friends do...


Anriana, my first thought as I read that was "What, does he have a thin muscley build?". My third thought was "Does he wear Bruce Lee t-shirts?" (second thought was he's asian...bad guess??)

But, on the other hand, the dominoes is just as annoying to someone who hates it, to tall people who hate basketball... or gay people who refuse to be proud.

[smileyeagle1021]

or gay people who refuse to be proud.

for the record, I have no problem people asking if I have gay pride... I hate it though when people try to tell me I'm obviously not "gay enough" without going to those events... or will say something like "ugh, fag, all you care about is sucking on dicks and waving those rainbow flags, just stay the hell away from me".
... it's a fine line that, as Slyt pointed out, we all come close to.

... and clarification on the offer to play a game of dominoes example... let's clarify and say you want to invite someone to a social event, you have a set of dominoes, a deck of cards, and a few board games... knowing that someone is from a culture that has a lot of people who play dominoes it would be foolish to ask him if he wants to play monopoly if your goal is to get the best chance of them saying yes. We're also assuming that this is someone you just met and have to make a guess on... if after you've gotten to know them, and know that they are one of the people who aren't the norm and would much rather play monopoly rather than dominoes, then yes, you are probably stuck on a stereotype, but I wouldn't say that of your first invitation.