"Freedom to chose what I believe in"

[PepperElf]

Just an old rant of mine...

Something I've encountered a lot online...


Someone professing liberal views, whether it's pro-choice or feminist views, or whether a woman should change her name if she gets married.... etc.

and you always get at least one of them...

A woman will voice her own opinion and choice... but she choses to be conservative. She choses to not support abortion, choses to change her name upon marriage...

And someone else will berate her for... her choice?


And whenever that happens... it always seems to me like it's... "You have the freedom to chose... as long as you agree with me. If you make a different choice you're a disgrace to all women."

Like wtf? Where's the freedom in that?

All choices supported! ... as long as as you pick MY choice.



ok rant over.

[Sylvia727]

I encounter that attitude a lot. "But we rescued you from old-fashioned ways of thought! How dare you not show your appreciation?" Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.

[anriana]

Choosing to deny other women their choices isn't a respectable choice.

[Slytovhand]

Not objecting to the OP in any way, but ...

People grow up in certain societies. They get indoctrinated into certain beliefs and attitudes. They are taught to think a certain way - and even taught that thinking that way is 'open-minded', or is a 'choice'. Religion is probably the best example (morals another).

So... is it really a 'choice'? (am I getting to existential?? )

[Boozy]

If Hypothetical Woman chooses to change her name after marriage, I truly do not give a shit. I similarly do not care if she doesn't change her name.

But I live in a democratic country, which means that Hypothetical Woman can vote. And if she is socially conservative, or anti-choice, or anti-women's rights, and I disagree, I may choose to challenge her views. Her views affect her vote, which has the potential to affect my government, which has the potential to affect my life and my freedom in profound ways.

I would never "berate" Hypothetical Woman, call her a "disgrace", or be rude in any way. I wouldn't challenge her in her workplace or other inappropriate settings. Bu if Hypothetical Woman and I were discussing politics at a dinner party, you can bet I'm not keeping my mouth shut. And she may hear some things she doesn't want to hear. Too bad.

I have a duty to speak my mind. She has a duty to speak hers. Neither of us get a pass to walk around thinking whatever we want unchallenged based on the old theory that Everyone Has A Right To An Opinion.

[PepperElf]

Choosing to deny other women their choices isn't a respectable choice.

of course there's an irony in that...

my other gripe is that freedom of choice in much of the popular media is only supported for things like those specific causes (like abortion).


Cos... I'm kinda sure that if a woman wore say... A tshirt depicting a woman smoking with the logo "my body my choice"
... she'd get a LOT of gripe from specific groups for that shirt.

but in a way it brings it all back to the original gripe too...
"Freedom to choice, as long as I agree with your choice ... and if it's not a choice I've dictated, I'll try to get the law to help force you to into my choice!"


(I'm in NY, the home of the proposed "Obesity tax!"... aka just a tax on sodas and sugar drinks etc...)


So freedom to choice for things like abortions
but restrictions if you want to chose to smoke or drink a regular soda

[Boozy]

Taxes are not restrictions of freedom (unless you ask a libertarian). Taxes on items such as junk food and cigarettes are not usually even meant to raise revenue. The purpose is to reflect the cost to society and/or consumer in the actual monetary cost of the product.

Example: Cigarette taxes are exhorbitant here in Ontario, because we have state-provided health care. Smokers cost society more; therefore the cost of cigarettes must be adjusted upwards to reflect that cost.

It's not illegal to smoke here, even if you're pregnant.

[Evandril]

(I'm in NY, the home of the proposed "Obesity tax!"... aka just a tax on sodas and sugar drinks etc...)


So freedom to choice for things like abortions
but restrictions if you want to chose to smoke or drink a regular soda

[/color]

If they want to put a tax on abortions (though I favor them being legal), I'd have no problems with it....and if they decide to try *banning* sodas/sugar drinks or the like....I'd have problems with that, though I know they are bad for me

[guywithashovel]

I think it's important to keep in mind that many people see conservative opinions on some of those viewpoints as restrictive to everyone's freedoms. For example, some people see pro-life people as wanting to restrict women's freedom to manage their bodies as they see fit. I'm not saying they do. I'm just saying that many people see it that way.

Furthermore, I think it's also important to remember that topics like abortion and feminism are often very volatile subjects and tend to get people's tempers fired up. If you're going to discuss such topics, you should probably brace yourself for some vehement statements from all parties involved.


And as a side note, I don't care how you cut it, conservative viewpoints regarding same sex marriage are definitely threatening to everyone's freedom. I know that many right-wing bigots try to sugarcoat their prejudice by saying that they believe the way they do because of their values or because they care about the sanctity of marriage etc etc etc. That's bullshit. You only want to deny other people their rights because you are thinking along the same lines as the segregationists back in the pre-1960 world.

[kiwi]

I once read that the Dalai Lama said something like "To be truly tolerant, you must be tolerant of this who are not tolerant "

I dont think I will ever reach that level of perfection personally!

I agree with guywithashovels sentiment that most people see groups like prolife (just an example) restrictive of those who dont agree with their view point. Most feel they give the "you can have rights as long as they are the same as I think/live/believe"

Personally I think its a tough subject to be cut and dry on. Many people baggered Sarah Palin for "setting women back 50 years" but she was a working mother who tried to balance her work/children duties... now I am not personally a fan of her, but I thought some of the criticism was underserved.

I think most people would do well by minding their own beeswax! I wont be changing my name when I get married, my mother went YAHOO, K's mother was digusted with me... I personally dont need anyones permission (including his) to change or not to change.
But that doesnt mean I think less of some of my friends who have.
Strangly enough I got in trouble at christmas, I sent a christmas card to my brand new niece. Her father, my brother and his fiancee are not married but they gave the baby his last name.
I hyphenated both of their last names on the card because I wasnt told whos last name she was given. Apprently I was insulting and pushing my morale stance on namechanging history on to them.

I told them to get a life.

by the way, the pink is REALLY tough to read

[AFPheonix]

I think it's important to keep in mind that many people see conservative opinions on some of those viewpoints as restrictive to everyone's freedoms. For example, some people see pro-life people as wanting to restrict women's freedom to manage their bodies as they see fit. I'm not saying they do. I'm just saying that many people see it that way.

Furthermore, I think it's also important to remember that topics like abortion and feminism are often very volatile subjects and tend to get people's tempers fired up. If you're going to discuss such topics, you should probably brace yourself for some vehement statements from all parties involved.


And as a side note, I don't care how you cut it, conservative viewpoints regarding same sex marriage are definitely threatening to everyone's freedom. I know that many right-wing bigots try to sugarcoat their prejudice by saying that they believe the way they do because of their values or because they care about the sanctity of marriage etc etc etc. That's bullshit. You only want to deny other people their rights because you are thinking along the same lines as the segregationists back in the pre-1960 world.

I don't mind if someone has a moral issue with abortion or what have you. If they don't feel comfortable with it, I can respect that. However when they congregate around clinics and harass girls who obviously don't share their moral bent, when they harass doctors and threaten them, when they vote for politicians based only on the criterion that they're gonna try to overturn Roe Vs Wade, then I have an issue.
If someone doesn't like something, then don't do it. It's that easy. Unfortunately, not all people see it that way. Those are the people I object to strongly.

[Boozy]

In fairness to pro-lifers: They see abortion as murder. Therefore, it's not rational for them to say, "I just won't murder anyone myself, but if others choose to do it, then that's their choice."

I disagree with the theory that abortion early in the gestation period is murder, so I support a woman's right to choose. But if I really believed with all my heart and soul that life began at conception, and that babies were being murdered in clinics every day, it would be rational for me to object and protest.

[AFPheonix]

I do understand where they're coming from. Unfortunately, it's one of those things where people simply cannot agree at what point a fetus is alive. Some think it's conception. Some think it's when the heart starts beating. Some think it's when then the baby's actually born.
So, for something like that, I do want pro-lifers to recognize that not everyone feels the same way they do, and even though it may be repugnant to them, there are legitimate reasons for the procedure and respect that.