Naive parents

[fireheart17]

OK, so I work for an after-school care provider across a NUMBER of schools, both public and private. I have my likes and my dislikes for the schools to work at. Sometimes the reason for dislike boils down to the coordinator themselves, sometimes it boils down to what the school is willing to give us (or not give us) and sometimes it boils down to the parents and kids themselves.

This particular thread applies to the parents who send their kids to private schools. And I don't just mean the teeny-ass parish schools with 150 children, I mean ANY private school.

I have no issue with parents who send their kids to a private school because it relates to their faith (ie Catholic parents sending their kids to a Catholic school)

I have no issue with parents who send their kids to a private school because they got a scholarship or they're legacy children (for instance, I looked after a group of girls whose family had a history with the school dating back to the founding of said school which was YEARS ago)

I have no issue with parents who send their kids to a private school because they weren't getting the support from their public school counterparts (and yes, it does happen.)

I have no issue with parents who choose alternative education for their children.

Here's what I do have issues with: (thoughts in brackets)

-Parents who think that private school will teach their children morals. (That's YOUR responsibility)

-Parents who believe that private school will teach their children manners (Again, YOUR responsibility. I'll be honest: I've encountered more rude children in private schools than in public. The teeny little Catholic schools seem to have more polite children though and are often my favourite schools to work with)

-Parents who believe that private school will stop their kid from encountering drugs (Hoo boy, where do I start with this one. I have one personal experience on this one: when I was student teaching at an alternative education school, a kid brought in marijuana. Unfortunately it was a case of "Hang out with the wrong crowd" for him, which is a shame as he was actually a good kid when not paired up with kids who incited him.)

-Parents who believe that private school will stop their children from becoming alcoholics, druggies or teen mums. (Two words: PARENTAL RESPONSIBILITY)

-Parents who believe that private school will teach their kid to be tolerant towards other children from different countries, different backgrounds and children with disabilities (This one is a mixed one for me. The Catholic and public schools do a much better job of this than the more elite privately educated ones)

-Parents who believe that private education will teach their kid resilience and provide "real life" experience. (So many people have commented that you can tell which kids are privately educated as they seem to be hit with the "life experience" card the hardest when they start uni)

-Parents who believe that private schools stop bullying. (Another big issue for me. Every single private school I have worked at has had at least one instance of bullying. The worst offenders are the girls at the higher-paying schools and one small case of a kid at a low-fee school. Public schools also have it, but the issue is easier to address because the kids at least know what to do when they're bullied. Private schools seem to be mixed on whether they encourage the outcomes or nto)

Time will tell if I'll encounter the same parents in Sydney.

[TheHuckster]

I agree with the idea that parents should provide as many lessons as they can to raise ethical, kind-hearted, and well-adjusted children, and should not rely on anyone else to do so. If the parents are not providing any sort of lessons in manners, then it doesn't matter what the schools or anyone else does.

That said, schools consist of the vast majority of a child's life, and especially the vast majority of social interactions they encounter with their peers and adults at the same time. It's a great opportunity to at least provide some guidance and point out when one is not nice, or praise one who is generous. If a teacher observes a case where the kid is rude or otherwise not nice, I think it should be part of the lesson-plan to teach a youngin' how to be an upstanding citizen of society.

I do not understand the parents who think it's someone else's job to teach those lessons, though... I just wonder how many of those kids are like Eddie Haskel from Leave it to Beaver, who act like an Eagle Scout around their parents and turn into Rosemary's Baby when they're out of the adults' sight.

[fireheart17]

I agree with the idea that parents should provide as many lessons as they can to raise ethical, kind-hearted, and well-adjusted children, and should not rely on anyone else to do so. If the parents are not providing any sort of lessons in manners, then it doesn't matter what the schools or anyone else does.

Pretty much this. I have encountered so many instances of a child who is rude, arrogant, smug, violent etc. at a service and their parents do nothing about it. In fact, they'll either encourage it or ignore it. We are allowed to exclude children who act like this if it escalates though

That said, schools consist of the vast majority of a child's life, and especially the vast majority of social interactions they encounter with their peers and adults at the same time. It's a great opportunity to at least provide some guidance and point out when one is not nice, or praise one who is generous. If a teacher observes a case where the kid is rude or otherwise not nice, I think it should be part of the lesson-plan to teach a youngin' how to be an upstanding citizen of society.

See, I don't have an issue with this so much, but parents EXPECTING the schools to do this is where I have an issue. Social skills? Sure, help the kid out a little bit.
One of the worst offenders in terms of schools I've worked at is the very pricey all-girls school in my state (Nyoibo knows the one). The older girls here aren't too bad (and are actually quite polite...this is girls Year 3/4/5, we only care for the girls up to this age), it's the kids from K-2 that are the worst. It is PAINFULLY clear that the parents of these children have not nipped the "spoilt princess" behaviour in the bud. Funnily enough, the kindy kids are more well behaved!

I do not understand the parents who think it's someone else's job to teach those lessons, though... I just wonder how many of those kids are like Eddie Haskel from Leave it to Beaver, who act like an Eagle Scout around their parents and turn into Rosemary's Baby when they're out of the adults' sight.

Way too many to count. The kids I absolutely freaking adored at the service are often the ones with the good parents behind them. Two of the kids at one of the public school services I've worked at are not as great in terms of behaviour, but their parents are absolutely wonderful.

[NecCat]

Pretty much this. I have encountered so many instances of a child who is rude, arrogant, smug, violent etc. at a service and their parents do nothing about it. In fact, they'll either encourage it or ignore it. We are allowed to exclude children who act like this if it escalates though

Why should the parents do anything about it? I have punished my child for things he's done at school, when I have seen it. If the teacher tells me that my child was rude to a friend, and my child says he wasn't, I can't turn around and punish him for it, no matter who I believe. The school however, can and should punish him. My son's teacher complains that he sometimes brings in distracting toys to school. I've told him not to do that, she tells him not to do it, but he sneaks them in. I've told her I've taken away toys from him when he misbehaves with them at home. I've even broken and thrown out a few in front of him (after warning him that would happen). He behaves with his toys at home. If he doesn't do it at school it is up to the teacher/school to deal with it. If they take his toys, sell them, donate them, break them, I don't care, it's your problem, you deal with it how you see fit. She just keeps saying 'I don't know if I am allowed to do that.'

See, I don't have an issue with this so much, but parents EXPECTING the schools to do this is where I have an issue.

I EXPECT the schools to teach the kids to practice tolerance, social behaviour, manners, and morals. Please notice I said 'practice'. Yes, it's my (the parent) job to stress these things, to be a role model of these things, and to work with my child on these things, just like it's my job to support the school with work at home on adding, counting, reading, whatever. It IS the schools job to work on these things in the 9 hours a day (of the 13 he spends awake) they spend with my child. It is the responsibility of the school to set appropriate behaviours and boundaries, to enforce infractions, to hold the kids accountable for their own behaviour, and to prepare them for the 'real world'.

In the real world if you get written up at work your husband doesn't make you do more chores for a week, if you get a parking ticket your boss doesn't make you stay late. If you behave badly at work, work deals with it. If you behave badly at home, your family deals with it. If you behave badly in public the police deal with it. Schools seem to believe that parents should deal with it if children behave badly at school.

Example: My son has been in trouble frequently this year for wrestling with his friend at recess. The result is he eats many lunches at the principals office instead of with his friends. The principal called me concerned because it is not stopping his behaviour and she wants me to do something about it. This is NOT my problem. I don't care if he and his friends wrestle at home, he's not breaking one of my rules. I understand they can get hurt, I've told them they can get hurt, when someone comes hurt and crying I refuse to sympathize, that's part of learning. I would rather they wrestle now, and figure out limits, than start boxing each other uneducated on pain tolerance and playing nice at 16. It is a school rule not to wrestle, it is the schools problem to stop it. If eating lunch at the principal is not working, do something else. Figure out something that he will consider a punishment and apply that. If you can't figure it out and out-smart a six year old, I am not sure you can be trusted to educate anyone.

Okay, my rant over, this is just a bit of a sore spot with me.

[crashhelmet]

As a former high school teacher and private teacher/tutor, I DESPISE parents like you.

This is your problem. By denying it, you're simply passing it off to someone else instead of taking responsibility of your job as a parent to discipline your child and teach your child to respect positions of authority.

Disciplining or teaching discipline to your child isn't a matter of jurisdiction.

Our job is to teach your children whatever it is we're supposed to be teaching them, while maintaining a proper learning environment for all of our students so that they can learn.

When your child acts up and disrupts the class, all we can do is send the child home with a note, put them in some form of detention, or suspend/expel them. It affects us as teachers when we run out of time to teach the material and it affects the other students when they don't get the time to learn or ask questions.

It is YOUR JOB to teach YOUR KID to be respectful.
It is YOUR JOB to teach YOUR KID discipline.
It is YOUR JOB to ensure YOUR KID isn't bringing shit to school that they are not supposed to bring.
It is YOUR JOB to teach YOUR KID to follow the rules and laws of the community, the school, and anywhere else they go.

It is YOUR JOB to punish YOUR KID. Not ours.

Sooner or later, if you don't, the judicial system will.

[TheHuckster]

Okay, after reading NecCat's response, now I totally understand what fireheart is talking about.

If my kids came home from school after a teacher called my parents or sent a note, they'd be in big trouble, and justifiably so. It doesn't matter if they had their punishment at school, because guess what? There's no such thing as double jeopardy at my house. They are going to do extra chores, get video games taken away, and whatever other sanctions were deemed necessary to shape them up.

You say that you do this to emulate the "real world" where you are "free" from punishment at home if you got a write-up at work, but that actually isn't how the real world works. Your performance at work does affect your life at home. If you get fired or get your pay docked, that affects your ability to keep a roof over your family's head. If you get a parking ticket and don't pay it, that can affect your ability to commute to work if your car gets impounded. There is no protective bubble in life.

To tell your kids that what happens at school stays in school like it's some complete second life for them is a terrible lesson to teach. To tell a teacher that their kid misbehaving at school is their problem really bothers me because that's not what parenting is all about. I might expect a school to punish misbehaving students as much as they can, but I also expect them to tell me when they've misbehaved to the point of getting sent to the principles office and I'm going to read them the riot act if they do so. I don't care if the school's rules are different from mine. If they get caught doing something at school they're not supposed to, that's something I will deal with, whether or not the school does.

[NecCat]

This is your problem. By denying it, you're simply passing it off to someone else instead of taking responsibility of your job as a parent to discipline your child and teach your child to respect positions of authority.

I absolutely teach my child to respect positions of authority. When we are out together he learns (mostly by watching and following, but also by talking and explaining things) to follow signs, listen to police, listen to local security, follow the signs the road guys are holding, wait patiently in line, all the things he needs to do to get along in society. When I have to do something that's not especially fun, he gets the explanations of why, and who makes that decision and why. When he comes home upset because he missed something fun or that he got a punishment at school, he gets talked to about what HE did that caused the punishment, and about how HIS actions cause other people to react to him, and how it affects HIM when HE chooses not to listen to his teacher (the one in authority). I am not going to punish him further though.

Sending home a note asking me to discipline him is not the action of someone in a position of authority, it's the action of someone who can't solve their own problems. There is nothing to respect in that. Sending home a note about what happened or why he got punished is a kind heads up to me so that when we talk about the problem at home I know how to explain it to him.

As an aside, you are talking about high school, I would expect much more mature behaviour from someone in high school, that they would by then have the self discipline to not disrupt a class, and that detention or expelling is all the punishment needed. Not being able to learn should be by that time be it's own punishment, or the kid is never going to get it. You expect someone in high school to have the wisdom and self discipline to behave on their own for hours at a time without supervision. My child is in kindergarten, and if fireheart is the same one from customerssuck! she (he?) teaches younger children as well. There is no way to expect any real sort of self discipline from a 6 year old. That's why you watch them every minute. That's why they need so much discipline (as in teaching, redirection, explanation and yes punishment). It can't only happen a few hours a day, it has to be constant and ongoing, and that makes it the responsibility of the school and the person in charge at school, when the child is at the school.

[TheHuckster]

Sending home a note asking me to discipline him is not the action of someone in a position of authority, it's the action of someone who can't solve their own problems. There is nothing to respect in that. Sending home a note about what happened or why he got punished is a kind heads up to me so that when we talk about the problem at home I know how to explain it to him.

Schools have very few things at their disposal to properly punish misbehaving students. Pretty much all they can do is send them to the principle's office or detention and remove their recess privileges. Merely losing recess because one bullied or hurt someone is hardly a just punishment.

...and all you're teaching them is if they get in trouble in school, it's okay, because in a few hours when they get home, they're free from any further consequences. They can watch TV, play computer games, have dessert, and hang out with their friends, all because it didn't happen on your watch.

Sorry, but that's bad parenting. If you think because your child is misbehaving, bullying, or otherwise being disruptive at school and not at home it's not your problem, you could be in for a big reality check when they grow up. It's parenting like that which produces children who made others' lives a living hell because all they got was a slap on the wrist for bullying by teachers who, due to policy, didn't have the discretion to do much more than send them down the hall and had enabling parents who turned the other way because they think it's the teacher's job to do something about it.

[Rageaholic]

He behaves with his toys at home. If he doesn't do it at school it is up to the teacher/school to deal with it. If they take his toys, sell them, donate them, break them, I don't care, it's your problem, you deal with it how you see fit. She just keeps saying 'I don't know if I am allowed to do that.'

I can understand the teachers point though. She might have been given crap from other parents who weren't so happy when they took the kids toy away (even if she's justified in doing so).

Example: My son has been in trouble frequently this year for wrestling with his friend at recess. The result is he eats many lunches at the principals office instead of with his friends. The principal called me concerned because it is not stopping his behaviour and she wants me to do something about it. This is NOT my problem. I don't care if he and his friends wrestle at home, he's not breaking one of my rules.

I don't see you being sucky here for reasons you stated. You're not telling the principle that she can't discipline the kid for wrestling, you're just not going to make it a concern. Now had the kid been assaulting other students, than yes, I could see that being a concern, but there's a difference between playful wrestling between friends and outright assault.

[anakhouri]

I teach my child at home. I EXPECT the school to reinforce the points I have already made with him. He's my kid, my only kid (though soon to be my oldeat kid), and the kindergarten teacher he'll have next year has 20 students to handle. By starting early and by being active in his education, he will hopefully be getting the same lessons he's been getting his whole 4-year-long life, supplemented by what he learns there.

I said on the other board that he has tremendous trouble learning to write. I am working with him every day this summer to halp him practice. Sure, the teacher will help him learn to write too- but she just doesn't have the resources I have to give him the personal attention he needs.

ANd he knows different places have different rules. My mom lets him play on her Kindle for 30 minutes a day. My MIL lets him plays much longer. He understands these two houses have different rules regarding the Kindle. He has learned to accept this. At home he can climb on the coffee table, but he has to stay off the tables at the child care room in the YMCA. There will be rules at school that will be different from the ones at home, but he has to abide by them as well.

(I actually worry about this- when he asks important questions of me or his father, and ALL questions are urgently important when you're little, we are able to answer them right away. A teacher with many kids to take care of can't give him that immediate answer, and I'm trying to make him understand that now, but I don't think he really gets it)

[CriminalMindsRocks]

I've even broken and thrown out a few in front of him (after warning him that would happen).

whoa hold the phone..admittedly, I do not have children (I'm a piggy parent but no actual children) but you've BROKEN your kid's stuff?? I'm sorry, but that's IMHO just cruel

I mean, take it away as punishment certainly, but breaking his toys, to me, is just...no.. mind you, my folks took away books & stuff as punishments, but they sure as hell didn't DESTROY them

must say, I'm glad as hell I didn't have you as a parent growing up

[patiokitty]

I have successfully raised a 22yo son and helped with a lot of others.

Never have I broke any of their toys or belongings as a punishment - that is a GREAT way to teach them to despise you. My mother used that trick when I was growing up and we do not have much of a relationship these days.

I have always taught him to follow the rules at school, even if things I allow at home are not allowed at school. I have punished him for these transgressions as well instead of brushing them off as not being my concern. Seriously, if your child feels that it is perfectly fine to ignore the rules at school because YOU, as a parent, refuse to discipline him at home for it YOU are creating a larger problem as a result - you are setting a fine example for your child by teaching him that he does not have to follow authority. Oh, and due to rules and legislations, sending a note home with your child to ask you to discipline them is ALL A TEACHER OR PRINCIPAL CAN ACTUALLY DO THESE DAYS! Not only that but IT IS A PARENT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO DISCIPLINE THEIR CHILDREN - NOT THE SCHOOL'S. End of story. Unless you want them to return to the age where teachers were permitted to cane children as a punishment for not following the rules? Like, holy fuck, seriously, now I can see why there are so many kids out there who haven't got a damn clue.

I never expected any teacher to teach my son manners or how to respect an authority figure - that was MY job as his PARENT. My only expectations of any of my son's teachers was for them to educate my child and to inform me if there were any behavioural issues that may need to be dealt with.

By the time my son was in kindergarten you'd better believe that he had a damn good idea about what was acceptable and what wasn't. Yes, he did have some sense of what self-discipline was and he damn well exercised it - he knew there were behaviours that would not be tolerated at school and that if I found out he pulled any of that shit at school that not only would his teacher provide some form of punishment but so would I.

Kids are a lot more accountable for their actions than some parents around here seem to think. You teach them from a young age - as is expected of a parent - how to behave in public, that there will be consequences for misbehaving, and how to respect others.

It is parents that assume that it is the teacher's job to discipline and teach their children everything that the parent should have done in the first fucking place that made me change my mind about becoming a teacher. Considering that I spent several years going to university in order to teach it is pretty fucking horrible what too many parents expect out of teachers. They are NOT miracle workers and if you give them a flawed product how the hell do you expect them to succeed?

I can tell you this as well - I have come across parents who adopt the attitude that it is not their problem if their child misbehaves at school. Their children? Usually the most rotten, spoiled little bastards out there - even worse when the parents are not around. My son is no angel and I know it, but he was never as bad as these kids...and their parents could never figure out why I would never allow their children around if they weren't there? Not hard to figure out after walking in on them terrorizing my son only to have them laugh when I told them I was going to speak to their parents. Why would they laugh? Because their parents were the same sort who figured that if it did not happen under their watch that they were not responsible, that I was because it happened in my home. Yet if I were to punish them as they so richly deserved they'd threaten to lay charges on me! Same sort of shit I would have been dealing with if I'd become a teacher. Fuck that noise in the ear.

[patiokitty]

Example: My son has been in trouble frequently this year for wrestling with his friend at recess. The result is he eats many lunches at the principals office instead of with his friends. The principal called me concerned because it is not stopping his behaviour and she wants me to do something about it. This is NOT my problem. I don't care if he and his friends wrestle at home, he's not breaking one of my rules. I understand they can get hurt, I've told them they can get hurt, when someone comes hurt and crying I refuse to sympathize, that's part of learning. I would rather they wrestle now, and figure out limits, than start boxing each other uneducated on pain tolerance and playing nice at 16. It is a school rule not to wrestle, it is the schools problem to stop it. If eating lunch at the principal is not working, do something else. Figure out something that he will consider a punishment and apply that. If you can't figure it out and out-smart a six year old, I am not sure you can be trusted to educate anyone.

.

Um what? Not your problem? I hate to tell you this but IT IS YOUR PROBLEM. You are creating an issue where your child believes he does not have to follow school rules. While it may not be a rule at home what are you doing to make him understand that it is not acceptable at school? By the sound of it, you are doing absolutely nothing due to your belief that the school has to deal with it.

Guess what - they are by letting you know about it and requesting that you as his parent do something about it. Instead you are sitting back and doing nothing. Let the school figure out a punishment? Are you not aware that there is very little they CAN do about it? Besides, it is part of being a parent to discipline your child. And, as a side note, did you realize that if the behaviour continues at school that they can request CFS (or whatever it is called in your neck of the woods) to step in and evaluate your child and their home life? Even if they find nothing wrong they will be on the watch for any little thing, even as over-worked as those workers can be. I've seen it happen too many times to count.

Oh, and the part about breaking your child's things? How fucking cruel can you be?

In my opinion you fail as a parent. You are exactly what is wrong with so many kids today. Congratulations.

[NecCat]

but you've BROKEN your kid's stuff?? I'm sorry, but that's IMHO just cruel

Never have I broke any of their toys or belongings as a punishment - that is a GREAT way to teach them to despise you. My mother used that trick when I was growing up and we do not have much of a relationship these days......
Oh, and the part about breaking your child's things? How fucking cruel can you be?

I disagree. Just to be clear, I don't go around stomping his things because I'm angry, that would be both cruel and stupid. But as a step in a series of escalating punishments for the same infraction, over the course of weeks, when the child is clearly told what will happen next if the behaviour continues, it is not cruel, nor does he resent or despise me. When I have to remind him of the same bad behaviour now he either checks himself, or he asks me to take the toy that's making him not listen - his words - and keep it for a few days until he can do good listening while playing with it. He doesn't fear 'mommy the toy-breaker', he trusts me to hold onto things that he doesn't feel ready to play with properly. It may not be precisely self discipline, but it's a good step in the right direction, and it clarifies for me that in this situation breaking his toy was exactly the right thing to do.

Seriously, if your child feels that it is perfectly fine to ignore the rules at school because YOU, as a parent, refuse to discipline him at home for it YOU are creating a larger problem as a result - you are setting a fine example for your child by teaching him that he does not have to follow authority. Oh, and due to rules and legislations, sending a note home with your child to ask you to discipline them is ALL A TEACHER OR PRINCIPAL CAN ACTUALLY DO THESE DAYS!

Again, I disagree. We are talking about manners, getting along with friends, basic politeness and good social behaviour. He doesn't feel it is fine to ignore these things because I don't do anything about it, he feels it is fine to ignore rules because the people setting them won't do anything about it. As far as following authority goes he really does understand it, get it, and is pretty good about it. All the teacher has to do is act from a position of authority. Doing nothing and sending home a note expecting me to do something is not the act of an authority figure.

His teacher this year and last year have both done well with him. They both had problems for the first few weeks (which I kind of expect, he doesn't do that well with change), they both called me and asked for advice, they both were reporting by October that he was completely turned around, and a joy to teach. He still gets reminded more than other kids, he gets time outs, or has to sit on his own once or twice a month, he's never going to be the quietest easiest kid, he's loud, fast, loves to move and finds it hard to sit still. Just because he finds it harder than some other kids doesn't mean he can't do it, and when the teacher sets the expectations and reinforces them, he will do it. He mostly gets in trouble at the recess when his teacher is on lunch, when the teacher in charge doesn't really do anything. His own teacher is willing to be the authority figure in his class, and he does well.

The teacher (or ECE I think) that he had his last year of day care was a complete twit, and why I feel so strongly about this. She would call me at least weekly to complain about the exact same problems every time and refused to do anything about it! He wouldn't sit and wait for his snack, he would wander around the room, bother other kids etc. So don't give him the snack. It's really not that hard, if the rule is you sit on your butt and wait for snack, then make him follow it! I guarantee he will not starve to death without those 4 baby carrots until lunch, and if he missed just one snack he would be sitting on his ass quiet as a mouse from now on. She wouldn't do anything but complain to me. It was the same for every complaint that she made. He would push to the front of lines to go outside or to the kitchen. She wouldn't pull him out of line and make him wait to the end, or make him miss time outside, she would let him keep the place he stole and then complain to me. He was 4, trying to explain the concept of long term benefits of a cooperative society was a bit beyond him. Understanding 'if I push in line I won't get what I want' wasn't, but it never happened. She called him her 'devil child' and by the time she had him for a year that was pretty close to accurate, and I think it was all her doing.

Kids are a lot more accountable for their actions than some parents around here seem to think. You teach them from a young age - as is expected of a parent - how to behave in public, that there will be consequences for misbehaving, and how to respect others.

It is parents that assume that it is the teacher's job to discipline and teach their children everything that the parent should have done in the first fucking place that made me change my mind about becoming a teacher. Considering that I spent several years going to university in order to teach it is pretty fucking horrible what too many parents expect out of teachers. They are NOT miracle workers and if you give them a flawed product how the hell do you expect them to succeed?

News flash, all kids, like all adults, are a flawed product. If you expect to be able to teach subject matter without ever worrying about any other aspects of life maybe it wouldn't be the right calling for you. As the kids get older you would expect less and less to dwell on other aspects of their personality, but it is still going to happen. Yes parents expect teachers to follow up on these skills that are started at home. If the kid demands 'Mrs P get me that' you would be expected to ignore it, or otherwise not reward the behaviour until the kid remembers manners and politely asks 'Mrs P could you please help me get that down, I can't reach on my own.' If kids are fighting over a play station the teacher needs to step in and set up a sharing schedule or deem that station off limits for the rest of the period or something.

My son is no angel and I know it, but he was never as bad as these kids...and their parents could never figure out why I would never allow their children around if they weren't there? Not hard to figure out after walking in on them terrorizing my son only to have them laugh when I told them I was going to speak to their parents.

I applaud that decision. If my son was terrorizing another child I would be very upset, that's not a rule of school, or your house, that is a rule of life. It is unacceptable to break at any time. I would also love the opportunity to explain to my son that HIS bad behaviour meant that HE was not welcome back to your house. That is exactly the sort of consequence that he needs to receive in order to learn more life lessons. And if my son, after a time, decided to apologize to you and your son and ask for another chance to be allowed at your house and to behave properly? That would be the least that I would expect of him. If you chose to give him another chance he would be warned by me that would probably be his last chance, and if you chose not to let him I would explain that that is your choice, you get to enforce the rules in your house. That is how I reinforce the idea of listening to authority.

Let the school figure out a punishment? Are you not aware that there is very little they CAN do about it? Besides, it is part of being a parent to discipline your child. And, as a side note, did you realize that if the behaviour continues at school that they can request CFS (or whatever it is called in your neck of the woods) to step in and evaluate your child and their home life? Even if they find nothing wrong they will be on the watch for any little thing, even as over-worked as those workers can be. I've seen it happen too many times to count.

There are so many things the school can and should do. As far as the wrestling why don't they take my son and the other two boys, every time they are found wrestling, and make them sit the rest of the recess on the ground with their backs against the building. If that doesn't work start taking a whole recess or two away every time they are found wrestling, make them sit in the classroom or run laps in the gym or something. The three boys eating lunch in the principals office together isn't really a punishment, they like each other and her, and more to the point, it's not working to stop the behaviour. They don't have to break out the corporal punishment to do something effective.

For the CAS, been there, lots of fun doing that. My husband committed suicide, and I was being investigated for murder for about 3 days until it became 100% clear what happened, the police called CAS the first minute or so. They are in fact a huge pain in the ass, and added a lot of unnecessary stress to my sons and my life. It took almost two years to get them to go away, until I had a stable job that would work around my daycare schedule, a reasonable income, a stable place to live. It doesn't help that I have diagnosed mental health problems, but after extensive interviews with my psychiatrist (I am properly medicated and capable of running my life) they decided I was a fit parent. A child 'not listening' to someone who refuses to command respect is hardly the symptom of a problem child, and a school who would consider threatening a family with that particular hell because of the problems the school is having/causing would be the lowest form of coercion.

[CriminalMindsRocks]

I disagree. Just to be clear, I don't go around stomping his things because I'm angry, that would be both cruel and stupid. But as a step in a series of escalating punishments for the same infraction, over the course of weeks, when the child is clearly told what will happen next if the behaviour continues, it is not cruel, nor does he resent or despise me. When I have to remind him of the same bad behaviour now he either checks himself, or he asks me to take the toy that's making him not listen - his words - and keep it for a few days until he can do good listening while playing with it. He doesn't fear 'mommy the toy-breaker', he trusts me to hold onto things that he doesn't feel ready to play with properly. It may not be precisely self discipline, but it's a good step in the right direction, and it clarifies for me that in this situation breaking his toy was exactly the right thing to do.

So, you're saying that your son "trusts" you to hang on to his stuff until he's ready for it but instead of hanging on to it, you destroy it?? You say that he doesn't fear/despise you? I call bullshit on that. If he doesn't fear/despise you now, just wait, keep on destroying his stuff & he eventually will

Plus, all that will teach him will be to hide stuff he doesn't want destroyed. so all you've done is teach him to be evasive & sneaky

Congrats