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  • Speed traps, or "revenue generators."

    This topic came to mind after a Facebook rant I posted after getting a speeding ticket, and another person's subsequent response. If that person wants to respond to this topic, they are welcome to do so. I won't say who posted the response, but if he or she choses to identify him or herself, that's fine too. Anyone who knows of the post I made or is friends with me on Facebook, please don't link to the post or to my page. I would like to maintain at least some level of anonymity, plus my settings are locked down pretty tight, and anyone who is not friends with me on Facebook wouldn't be able to see the post anyway. All they'll be able to see on my page is my name, my profile pic, and who my friends are. As far as this particular thread, the usual rules apply -- disagreeing is fine, personal attacks are not.

    I was pretty angry when it happened, and used some pretty harsh words, including a few things that we probably wouldn't allow to be posted even on this board. Despite the tone of my post, I don't "hate" cops. I just don't trust them. And it's not because they're cops. I don't trust people in general, and cops have powers that people in general can not be trusted with.

    I understand the need for cops, and wouldn't even want to try to imagine what it would be like if there were no laws. However, it seems that their priorities are misplaced these days. It seems like they're spending too little time on serious crimes, and too much time pulling people over who forget to slow down when the speed limit suddenly drops. I have no problem with them pulling someone over who's flying down the road like a bat out of hell, as they did with me when I got my first ticket, at the age of 19, when I was young and stupid. But I have a real problem with them sitting there, watching and waiting for people to fuck up, and pouncing on them when they do.

    Worse yet, our wonderful governor recently passed a transportation package scam that included higher gasoline taxes (as if gas wasn't expensive enough already), increased license and registration fees, increased rental car taxes, and increased fines. Apparently we have enough extra money to pay for a "full-time" legislature with outrageous salaries and benefits, as well as stadiums for sports team owners, but at the same time, the state is so broke that we had to jack up taxes to pay for our roads and bridges. But that's a whole other rant. Also, prior to this being passed, the cops had a bit of leeway. They could write you up for disregarding traffic control device, rather than for speeding. This was a slightly lower fine which doesn't put points on your license. Now they're no longer allowed to do this.

    Some of these cops are complete and total pricks, especially towards younger people. I'm not saying all of them are like that, and I had my dealings with both good ones and bad ones when I was younger. The one that pulled me over the first time was pretty decent, while the one that pulled me over the next time just seemed to have this attitude that all younger people were out to cause trouble. My son got pulled over by one of the bad ones awhile back, and the cop kept talking down to him, yelling at him, and accusing him of being on drugs or having drugs in the car. When he finally sent him on his way, he followed him all the way to the township line, apparently trying to find something else to bust him for. My son did score a small victory, however. The cop added the costs up wrong, and shorted the ticket $10. My son caught that and asked me what he should do, and I told him, "It says to pay that much, that's how much you pay!" I had been through something similar with a parking ticket I got when I still lived in the city. I had forgotten to move my car on street "cleaning" day, and got ticketed. However, the cop put the wrong amount on the ticket. Running out of time on a parking meter was $5, and everything else was $14. He checked the correct offense, but wrote "$5" on the ticket. I actually went to whatever building was where you could pay it in person to ask about it, and the clerk told me the same thing. "The officer was the one who made the mistake, so just pay the $5 like it says."

    The real problem I have with these speed traps is that they're actually revenue generators. They say it's "for your safety", to get people to slow down, but they don't really want people to slow down. They want people to keep speeding so they can cash in on it. I realized that back around 2000 when they built the new bypass around the town of Dauphin. Prior to that, US 22/322 ran right through town. It was a four-lane expressway until you got to town, and then it narrowed to two lanes and a 35-mile speed limit. People would go flying through town all the time, and the local cops made a small fortune in tickets. Once the bypass was built, people were no longer speeding through town, and the residents were happy that they could now walk across the street without having to worry about being run over. But the officials were pissing and moaning about all the money they were losing from not being able to hand out tickets left and right.

    In my case, was I speeding? Yes, but it was not intentional. That particular stretch of road inexplicably and suddenly drops from 55 to 35, even though it's a straight, wide-open stretch of road with almost no buildings along it, and it's so easy to forget to slow down, or to slow down quickly enough not to get pulled over. Yes, it was my mistake, but I don't see why that mistake had to cost me almost $200. And I really should have been paying attention, because I saw someone else pulled over on my way through earlier. Once in awhile, you might get lucky and get let off with a warning, but if a cop is sitting there looking for people to pull over, he's not there to hand out warnings.

    Another bad spot for that is a place that comes off of a major highway and then suddenly drops to 25. And not far from there is a stretch of road with nothing but woods, that eventually leads into a fairly busy section with many buildings. The stretch of road with nothing but woods is 25. The busy section with all the buildings is 35. Go figure. For awhile, the cops were operating a speed trap in the wooded area. Then one day someone put up a sign that said "Coming soon -- Mr. Donut." I think they stopped having their speed traps there after that.
    --- I want the republicans out of my bedroom, the democrats out of my wallet, and both out of my first and second amendment rights. Whether you are part of the anal-retentive overly politically-correct left, or the bible-thumping bellowing right, get out of the thought control business --- Alan Nathan

  • #2
    Ugh, I hate illogical speed zones like your wooded area. Strange you'd have a drop from 55 to 35; in Georgia, at least, I never see the speed limit drop by more than 10 mph at a time, preceded by "reduced speed ahead" signs. The only exception I can think of is a school zone, and in that case they have the flashing lights to get people's attention.
    "My in-laws are country people and at night you can hear their distinctive howl."

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    • #3
      if it's only to generate revenue, then it's bad. However, I CAN see speed cameras being useful in places where people actually speed.

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      • #4
        Where my brother used to live, there is a section of elevated highway coming into town where the limit drops quite rapidly from either 65/55 to 45 to 35 in such a small stretch of road that the last speed limit sign is visible from the prior one >_> you betcherass that the cops camped that one out...

        Also, back home, there was a broad "connector" street that ran from Southernmost thoroughfare to interstate to major thoroughfare to the levee a few blocks North. While most of this street was 35mph, and that was seldom even enforced, the segment just North of major tf was suddenly 25mph, complete with the big box for cops to sit in that had its own radar guns and "your speed is..." light-up signs -- In the other bits, you could do over 40 and nobody would really care (despite the presence of a school); in that one small section, they would bust you for 27 x.x

        Tho, on the flip side -- at one point, the Council decided that the cops were not taking in enough revenue from speeding tickets, and so, they imposed a per-shift/per-week minimum amount for each officer. The cops were not happy about this, as it was seen as a pointless dick-swinging move (which, to be fair, it was); they responded by writing exactly enough speeding tickets to meet the quota, and then ignoring speeders completely until the week was up. That quota was revoked tut de suite as a result
        "Judge not, lest ye get shot in your bed while your sleep." - Liz, The Dreadful
        "If you villainize people who contest your points, you will eventually find yourself surrounded by enemies that you made." - Philip DeFranco

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        • #5
          I can't help but wonder what would happen if there weren't enough people speeding to make their quota. Would they get in trouble for it, much like the cashiers that are supposed to get x number of store card signups, regardless of whether or not the customers are willing to sign up for them?
          --- I want the republicans out of my bedroom, the democrats out of my wallet, and both out of my first and second amendment rights. Whether you are part of the anal-retentive overly politically-correct left, or the bible-thumping bellowing right, get out of the thought control business --- Alan Nathan

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          • #6
            Actually, that was part of the implication when the measure was passed - that heads would roll and/or other punishments would come into play if the quota was not met. There were routinely *more* than enough speeders to meet quota, and the Council knew it. It was purely a show of power, and not needed in any way.
            "Judge not, lest ye get shot in your bed while your sleep." - Liz, The Dreadful
            "If you villainize people who contest your points, you will eventually find yourself surrounded by enemies that you made." - Philip DeFranco

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            • #7
              Where I live, the borough cops are dicks. Not all of them, but enough to make me not trust them. Remember, I had a cop cite me for reckless driving and failure to control my vehicle after an accident. Never mind that it wasn't my fault. No, I got the citations because my dad and I argued with the cop. The cop decided that because I was a newly-minted driver, that I was automatically at fault, and wrote down what *he* thought happened--totally ignoring what the witnesses, not to mention the other driver--said.

              Anyway, so I don't trust the borough cops at all. Mainly because of that incident, and because they have a well-deserved reputation for pulling people over for being 2mph over the limit. As soon as you hit the borough line, the speed limit drops from 40 to 35. Anyone want to guess the first thing you see?

              Nope, not the police car. You don't see him until he puts the blues on. By then, you're fucked. Open your wallet, pull out $150 please. Again, it's not about safety--it's about the revenue. Think about it, if it was about being safe, would the police cars really be hiding behind buildings and billboards?

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              • #8
                Interestingly -- and sadly -- someone who was very close to a close friend of mine vanished a couple months ago. Her body was found not far from where they were running the speed trap. I can't help but think that maybe if the cops were doing their job, rather than harassing people who were just trying to get from point A to point B, maybe they would have found that poor girl sooner.
                --- I want the republicans out of my bedroom, the democrats out of my wallet, and both out of my first and second amendment rights. Whether you are part of the anal-retentive overly politically-correct left, or the bible-thumping bellowing right, get out of the thought control business --- Alan Nathan

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MadMike View Post
                  I can't help but think that maybe if the cops were doing their job, rather than harassing people who were just trying to get from point A to point B, maybe they would have found that poor girl sooner.
                  While that is certainly tragic, I do have to object to the whole "Don't the cops have more serious crimes to handle" theme. The officers writing the tickets are a different department than the ones investigating homicides. Its two different job descriptions. An officer camping a speed trap is not taking resources away from investigations into serious crimes. They're taking resources away from their own department. Which, yes, honestly still has better things to do, but its not going to cause any sort of impact on the investigation of serious crimes.

                  That said, revenue generation dickery seems to be a big thing in some states. I recall watching a video on Liveleak where the officers created a crosswalk trap for revenue generation. Local law said that a vehicle could not enter a cross walk while a pedestrian will still on it. So they literally had a plain clothes officer just cross the street back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, for hours. Then a patrol car would pull over and ticket anyone whose vehicle entered the crosswalk while the officer was still walking in it.

                  They were basically just trapping tourists and out of towners unaware of the letter of the law.

                  There's no way the officer at the speed trap that got you isn't aware of the sudden speed limit change and sitting there specifically for that reason. Banking on people being unaware or unsuspecting of the sudden change. Speed traps should be used in areas where there is a history of accidents for one reason or another. As a deterrent. Not as a trick to generate some extra $$$.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gravekeeper View Post
                    That said, revenue generation dickery seems to be a big thing in some states. I recall watching a video on Liveleak where the officers created a crosswalk trap for revenue generation. Local law said that a vehicle could not enter a cross walk while a pedestrian will still on it. So they literally had a plain clothes officer just cross the street back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, for hours. Then a patrol car would pull over and ticket anyone whose vehicle entered the crosswalk while the officer was still walking in it.
                    Unfortunately, it's a pretty common practice. Quite a few areas get away with this sort of thing, mostly because the country is too big, and has many municipalities with different laws and regulations. They can easily set up questionable "enforcement areas" and nobody is the wiser. These things can take decades to investigate and unravel.

                    There's no way the officer at the speed trap that got you isn't aware of the sudden speed limit change and sitting there specifically for that reason. Banking on people being unaware or unsuspecting of the sudden change. Speed traps should be used in areas where there is a history of accidents for one reason or another. As a deterrent. Not as a trick to generate some extra $$$.
                    That's exactly why he was sitting there. Not for safety, but to bust someone. It's not just local cops either. I know of a speed trap not far from Pittsburgh. If you get off I-79 near Route 65, be careful of the speed limit change. When you get off the interstate, the signs read "40MPH."

                    Imagine my surprise, when I'm doing the legal 40MPH....and I get pulled over by the state police! What the fuck?!? Seems there "had been complaints about speeding" so the township lowered the limit to 25, and didn't bother changing the signs!

                    As I was sitting there with one trooper, they managed to pull over *every* car coming down that road--about 6 in all. No way to fight it either, since the local magistrate is a douche. At least I didn't get any points. Instead of getting busted for speeding, the trooper wrote it up as if I'd run a stop sign. Pain in the ass, since it cost $120!

                    I could have fought it, but with the magistrate's reputation, I'd have lost. I would have to explain that I got pulled over for speeding, and pay additional fines on that, plus risk getting the points added. Not worth it.

                    This kind of shit is *exactly* why people don't like cops. Legalized extortion, and then they can't understand why they don't get respect.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gravekeeper View Post
                      While that is certainly tragic, I do have to object to the whole "Don't the cops have more serious crimes to handle" theme. The officers writing the tickets are a different department than the ones investigating homicides. Its two different job descriptions. An officer camping a speed trap is not taking resources away from investigations into serious crimes. They're taking resources away from their own department. Which, yes, honestly still has better things to do, but its not going to cause any sort of impact on the investigation of serious crimes.
                      GK's right. Complaining about traffic cops not investigating homicide is kind of like complaining about plastic surgeons not helping cure cancer. The one may be far more important than the other, but it's neither their job description nor their skill set.

                      That said, I've heard of one local place that's supposed to be really bad. If you ever find yourself in Hinton, WV, you have probably somehow gotten yourself hopelessly lost, because I don't think anyone goes to Hinton on purpose. But I'm told that the speed drops from 45 to 25, stays there through the entire town, and you'll be pulled over for going 27.

                      The worst I ever encountered personally was McBee, South Carolina.

                      The speed drops from 55 to 25 there, so quickly you can see the last sign from the first. They also increase fines for driving in a school zone regardless of the time. 7 PM on a weekend in the middle of Summer? You're passing the school, so it's still a school zone (this is a four-lane highway, for the record). But the real sign it's a speed trap?

                      Along with the ticket, they'll hand you a pre-addressed envelope and instructions for sending in your payment—money order preferred.
                      "The hero is the person who can act mindfully, out of conscience, when others are all conforming, or who can take the moral high road when others are standing by silently, allowing evil deeds to go unchallenged." — Philip Zimbardo
                      TUA Games & Fiction // Ponies

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KabeRinnaul View Post
                        GK's right. Complaining about traffic cops not investigating homicide is kind of like complaining about plastic surgeons not helping cure cancer. The one may be far more important than the other, but it's neither their job description nor their skill set.
                        Point taken. Still, it seems like a waste of resources.
                        --- I want the republicans out of my bedroom, the democrats out of my wallet, and both out of my first and second amendment rights. Whether you are part of the anal-retentive overly politically-correct left, or the bible-thumping bellowing right, get out of the thought control business --- Alan Nathan

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                        • #13
                          Just as an aside -- If you go to a new town and wanna know where the local speed traps are (or just never figured out the ones where you live)...? Ask a pizza driver. Trust me on this one
                          "Judge not, lest ye get shot in your bed while your sleep." - Liz, The Dreadful
                          "If you villainize people who contest your points, you will eventually find yourself surrounded by enemies that you made." - Philip DeFranco

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by EricKei View Post
                            Just as an aside -- If you go to a new town and wanna know where the local speed traps are (or just never figured out the ones where you live)...? Ask a pizza driver. Trust me on this one
                            Your trust is VERY WELL placed indeed. We are all seeing and all knowing AND if you watch the local news or pay attention to the Social Media that focuses on your local area you can easily find when and where the sobriety check points are and catch where the cops sit.

                            There are, however, times when the cops just blanket the whole area especially after a BIG local event such as a home football game/event or during most holidays.
                            I'm lost without a paddle and I'm headed up sh*t creek.

                            I got one foot on a banana peel and the other in the Twilight Zone.
                            The Fools - Life Sucks Then You Die

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by protege View Post

                              Imagine my surprise, when I'm doing the legal 40MPH....and I get pulled over by the state police! What the fuck?!? Seems there "had been complaints about speeding" so the township lowered the limit to 25, and didn't bother changing the signs!

                              As I was sitting there with one trooper, they managed to pull over *every* car coming down that road--about 6 in all. No way to fight it either, since the local magistrate is a douche. At least I didn't get any points. Instead of getting busted for speeding, the trooper wrote it up as if I'd run a stop sign. Pain in the ass, since it cost $120!

                              I could have fought it, but with the magistrate's reputation, I'd have lost. I would have to explain that I got pulled over for speeding, and pay additional fines on that, plus risk getting the points added. Not worth it.
                              Could you not take that to a higher level? If that magistrate is not overturning tickets when the limit wasn't even signed then they should be under investigation.

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