No touching in schools allowed

[NecCat]

(I left work early today, and am currently 40 degrees, I apologize if I stop making sense at any turn)

Teachers are not allowed to touch the children in schools. Not for any reason, not in any circumstance, and not at any time. Stupidest rule I've heard yet, if you don't trust the teachers not to have bad intentions when they touch a child, maybe you should screen them better, hire different teachers, or come up with a system that allows for supervision of the teachers activitiy when interacting with the children.

Yesterday my friend got a call from her children's school about her 4 year old, who was SCREAMING in the background during the call. He had zipped his penis into his pants inn the bathroom by accident, and couldn't get it out, probably due to the agonizing pain and being only 4 years old. Frantically she asked the principal, can you not get it out either, is it that stuck, can you cut off the pants or something and pull the zipper apart? No, principal is not allowed to touch the students. Nobody there is allowed to touch any student, not to help them in this situation, not to prevent them hurting another child, not to administer first aid if they were hurt, no touching, period. Furious she yelled at the lady to go get her other son out of class and get him to help his brother, drove there as fast as she could, took him to hospital, and he was finally released a couple hours ago, being told that he would be okay in a few days.

What kind of cruel sadistic person could let a 4 year old be in that much pain, and refuse to help them. If the teachers are that worried about false accusations against them (I assume that is why the rule is in place) can they not get two adults to help, so one is supervising and taking notes to inform the parent, and the other is actually acting like someone who might care a little bit about other people. Would the teachers also sit around watching a hurt child die waiting for an ambulance, just so they could say they hadn't touched him. How about upset children, do sad 4 year olds not desrve hugs from the adults who are supposed to be looking after them.

This whole policy makes me angry, and also a little afraid to send my son to school.

[TheHuckster]

Something like that should really be handled by licensed parametics. The fact that the school deals with what amounts to a medical emergency like this with people shrugging their shoulders asking eachother what they should do without touching the student is batshit crazy.

[wolfie]

My guess is that this policy will stick until the school is sued because a teacher FAILED to take action that would have involved touching a student.

Imagine this scenario: It's hot dog day. Student eats one too quickly, starts choking on a piece of it. Teacher in attendance calls 911 to summon an ambulance (remember - when seconds count, emergency services are only minutes away). Dispatcher gives instructions on how to do the Heimlich manouver. Teacher's response "By school policy I'm not permitted to touch a student". Student dies before ambulance arrives.

When (not if) the parents sue, the school can kiss its next few years of budget good-bye - that's a slam-dunk case of gross negligence where punitive damages would be highly appropriate.

[Andara Bledin]

If I were the parent involved in the OP, you bet your ass I'd be suing the school for cruelty to a child for allowing the situation to continue and refusing to do anything to try to fix things because of a stupid rule.

[telecom_goddess]

this zero tolerance for anything and everything is getting SOOOOOOOOOO out of hand. This is ridiculous.

[fireheart17]

what the fuck is wrong with society?! Seriously, if you're worried about pedophiles, have someone else in the room!!!!

[s_stabeler]

for fucks sake... these policies make absolutely zero sense. why?
1. someone with pedophillia probably should not be teaching, so worrying about teacher-student fraternization should only really be an issue in high school.
2. I highly doubt there is anything arousing about freeing someone's penis from a zipper, even IF the student was old enough that a relationship was possible
3. It would make more sense to have a policy of only allowing a teacher of the same gender to touch a student's private areas when it is necessary.
4. what if the teacher was breaking up a fight? I can tell you that they will almost certainly need to restrain at least one of the kids fighting.
5. what constitutes a touch? brushing past in the corridor?
6. school nurse. is presumably bound by the same rule. Checking if someone is unwell usually requires touching them. ( off the top of my head, if you weren't throwing up, the school nurse at my old school would usually check your temperature. How she did it was by holding a strip to your forehead.)

as has been pointed out, there are far too many situations where a no-touching policy causes more harm than good. Take NecCat's case- the student was in agony, and I'd say there SHOULD be a lawsuit possible ( I don't know for certain) since the school has a duty of care towards the kids. Letting the kid scream in agony while refusing to help is probably a breach.

[fireheart17]

1. someone with pedophillia probably should not be teaching, so worrying about teacher-student fraternization should only really be an issue in high school.

"Should not" doesn't always mean "does not." There are WAY WAY WAY too many cases of teachers over here (male and female) losing their registration for inappropriate contact with students. It's not teacher-student fraternisation, it's "teacher being brazen enough to take advantage of a child who doesn't know any better."

2. I highly doubt there is anything arousing about freeing someone's penis from a zipper, even IF the student was old enough that a relationship was possible

I think this may start constituting "grooming" behaviour/getting child's trust.

3. It would make more sense to have a policy of only allowing a teacher of the same gender to touch a student's private areas when it is necessary.

For the after-hours care jobs I did, if there was a kid with special needs who needed assistance with toileting, they could only get a support worker of the same gender. at my (now) last job, we had 2 staff members going into the toilet for safety reasons and also because the girl we were caring for had very complex needs.

4. what if the teacher was breaking up a fight? I can tell you that they will almost certainly need to restrain at least one of the kids fighting.

There was a story about this in Victoria (Australia) where a male (the gender is relevant here) was suspended and had his teaching license revoked (at the time) because he'd failed to break up a fight between two girls effectively. The sad thing was that had he gone and broken up the fight, he would've been blasted for "touching" the girls. (these were high school girls)

6. school nurse. is presumably bound by the same rule. Checking if someone is unwell usually requires touching them. ( off the top of my head, if you weren't throwing up, the school nurse at my old school would usually check your temperature. How she did it was by holding a strip to your forehead.)

Checking for injury as well...same deal. I believe we wound up checking temperature with thermometers if we were really in doubt.

[Bright Star]

I can understand their fear of being sued for a rogue teacher or administrator touching a student inappropriately but what I fail to understand is standing by doing nothing to help a student in a medical emergency. Do they really think that excuse is going to fly if a student passes away cause they didn't do anything to help?
At some point common sense has to prevail. So are you telling me that if a kid is choking that they're just going to stand around & do nothing to help & act like they're doing a good thing cause they're not "touching" the poor kid? & by the time the ambulance arrives it could be too late to save the kid. Then what? What will they tell the parent of that poor kid then?
That's a lawsuit waiting to happen & when it does it won't be pretty.

[Hyena Dandy]

If I were the parent involved in the OP, you bet your ass I'd be suing the school for cruelty to a child for allowing the situation to continue and refusing to do anything to try to fix things because of a stupid rule.

Having worked in schools, at least where I am, it's not just a policy, it's a law. The law may be written over-broadly, but there really is, legally speaking, nothing that I can do about it.

Though I don't know why the school nurse wouldn't be allowed to help, We have in the past had to get the school nurse to assist with things anyone SHOULD be able to do (Like a student having hurt their ankle and so they need a bit of help walking.) It's not a fun situation, but it's what the law is.

[NecCat]

Having worked in schools, at least where I am, it's not just a policy, it's a law. The law may be written over-broadly, but there really is, legally speaking, nothing that I can do about it.

I'm not positive, but I seem to remember the first time I took first aid being told there was a law that boiled down to - if you have the ability to help in a medical situation, you are required to do so to the best of your abilities. Another law, the converse of the one above, was that if you were assisting in a medical situation to the best of your ability, you couldn't be held responsible for the consequences.

I'm sure that stuck penis weren't covered specifically, but things like failing to do the Heimlich when you knew how and someone dies, you are accountable for manslaughter. Doing it, but too enthusiastically or slightly incorrect and you break a rib or something, you can't be held accountable, or even doing it unsuccessfully and the person dies any way, you can't be legally held responsible.

Would that law (assuming I'm remembering it correctly) not trump any law about teacher/student touching in schools?

Also no the school will not take a students temperature. They also won't assist in giving epi-pens, assist in bandaging or icing injuries (though they will provide bandages and ice when needed), assist in washing wounds, or do a basic reaction assessment to see if a head injury falls under the category of 'bump' or 'possible concussion'. As I say, it makes me a little afraid to send my kid to school.

[Hyena Dandy]

Would that law (assuming I'm remembering it correctly) not trump any law about teacher/student touching in schools?

That sounds like it would (assuming there's no exception in the law written into the school rules.) ALso, last I heard, the nurse was able to take temperatures, bandage/ice injuries, and administer epipens here. But again, that may have changed, and we have been fortunate enough that there have been no injuries in the last 3-4 years that needed a nurse's attention (In fact, the last time there was a 'send-home' injury there I got a concussion 7 years ago.)

But I don't know if this person is either in the state you or I are in, so I don't know what their rules are. Either way, where I am, I was told it was only in situations where I reasonably believe someone's life to be in danger, so as painful as it looks to have someone caught in a zipper, if I don't think this is a time-critical, life-or-death emergency, I wouldn't be covered. Also it would only cover something I am qualified to administer - So while I have first aide training for, say, the heimlich, or CPR, I wouldn't be protected for something I am not qualified to do - Someone's hurt and I try to drag them to safety, only to accidentally make their current situation worse, then I am liable.

[fireheart17]

They also won't assist in giving epi-pens

Oh geez...if I was a parent of an anaphylactic child, my kid needed his/her epipen, it wasn't given and my kid died, you would bet that I would not only be challenging that law in court, but I would also be suing the school for failure of "duty of care."

Besides, epipens these days tend to be more or less idiot proof. It's literally "take blue safety cap off, make fist around epipen, whack fist into leg until the pen clicks, massage injection site" (this is with the ones I was taught on)

[Tama]

Yeah, to me epipens seem to be idiot proof and oddly one of the few things in TV that is portrayed correctly.

[Nyoibo]

You say idiot proof, until you see someone try to do it with their thumb on the wrong end