People who assume I'm some bad person because of my personal/religious beliefs.

[mjr]

I don't want to call it "hate", just frustration.

And as an addendum, people who use words like "hate" and "bigot" wrong. And/or act like their position is somehow "superior" to mine when it may not be, simply because they think I'm a bad person.

I'm sure there are people who think I'm some bad person because of my personal/religious beliefs.

And yes, I'm fully aware and I absolutely acknowledge this is a two-way street.

However, what I've found out that happens is that people make snap judgements instead of having a dialogue about why people believe what they do.

[HYHYBT]

It really depends. It sure is aggravating when someone who's just said something awful says "I'm not being hateful/bigoted/whatever, I'm just expressing my opinion," as if they were mutually exclusive things.

[Mr Hero]

I get called hateful and bigoted because I don't agree with particular lifestyles. I've read about overly judgmental religious SC's who condemn the people involved. Can't I disagree with what they're doing without being called bigoted? My religion also teaches to be kind to one another, and I do my best to do that with everyone I meet.

[mjr]

It really depends. It sure is aggravating when someone who's just said something awful says "I'm not being hateful/bigoted/whatever, I'm just expressing my opinion," as if they were mutually exclusive things.

See, I disagree with this a little.

Just because someone says something that, in your mind, is "awful" doesn't mean that person actually is hateful/bigoted/whatever. Sometimes that "awful" thing is the truth. Maybe that "awful" thing should not be said, but that doesn't make it any less truthful.

Here's a good real-life example: I've seen several people note that "Caitlyn" Jenner is still biologically and chromosomally a male, and that no amount of surgery is going to change that.

Is it mean to say? Probably. Is it hateful/bigoted/whatever? That depends on perspective, I suppose. Is it true? Science says so.

As a hypothetical example, if something happens to an individual I say "That person had it coming", or "Is anyone really surprised?", and then you say, "That's being hateful/bigoted/whatever", that's not necessarily the case.

I guess my bigger point is that just because someone says something we, personally, don't like, it doesn't make that person hateful/bigoted/whatever.

[mjr]

I get called hateful and bigoted because I don't agree with particular lifestyles. I've read about overly judgmental religious SC's who condemn the people involved. Can't I disagree with what they're doing without being called bigoted? My religion also teaches to be kind to one another, and I do my best to do that with everyone I meet.

This is somewhat of a good example of what I'm talking about. Especially the parts in your quote that I bolded above.

[Kheldarson]

Here's a good real-life example: I've seen several people note that "Caitlyn" Jenner is still biologically and chromosomally a male, and that no amount of surgery is going to change that.

Is it mean to say? Probably. Is it hateful/bigoted/whatever? That depends on perspective, I suppose. Is it true? Science says so.

.

It depends on where you go from there, for me. If you're stating you disagree with her choice, but still being respectful of her choice, then fine. But if you're being disrespectful, like calling her a him, then you're being truly hateful.

[mjr]

But if you're being disrespectful, like calling her a him, then you're being truly hateful.

But that wouldn't be me. That would be something called "biology".

See? But if someone holds a position like this, they could be called "hateful" or "bigoted".

[TheHuckster]

Then you are confusing gender with sex.

Gender identity is a lot more than what you were born with, or even what chromosomes you have. For most people, yes, you're physiologically and psychologically satisfied with what you were given at birth. For people like Caitlyn Jenner, she clearly wasn't. And because the pronouns he/she are subjective to one's gender identity, not their biological sex, it is correct to refer to her as she.

[mjr]

Then you are confusing gender with sex.

Gender identity is a lot more than what you were born with, or even what chromosomes you have. For most people, yes, you're physiologically and psychologically satisfied with what you were given at birth. For people like Caitlyn Jenner, she clearly wasn't. And because the pronouns he/she are subjective to one's gender identity, not their biological sex, it is correct to refer to her as she.

But that brings up a completely different argument.

So you're basically telling me that ANYONE can just say they're a "he" or a "she" because they say they are?

And when a person says they "feel like a man/woman", what does that mean, and how would they even know?

I mean, if a man says, "I feel like a woman", how would he know? He's never BEEN an actual woman, so he really wouldn't know, right?

So if you don't identify with "either" (since I'm told there are multiple) gender, how should you be referred to?

[Kheldarson]

But that wouldn't be me. That would be something called "biology".

See? But if someone holds a position like this, they could be called "hateful" or "bigoted".

Not really. You're hateful because you're ignoring identity.

Even beyond Huckster's excellent link, put it this way: how would you feel if somebody deliberately called you the wrong name? Like Jim instead of James or Kim for Kimberly? You'd be upset, right? And folks would agree because it's your name and you can be called what you prefer.

It's the same thing here. Heck, we do it online all the time. I tell you I'm a girl, but you have very little way of being able to know that for certain. But you do me the respect of using the gender I prefer, right? It's the same in real life. You can declare all you want that biologically she isn't a woman. But you should still use she for her because that's her preference.

[mjr]

But we're getting a bit off topic.

So if I know someone, and I call them a "lazy, ungrateful mooch", does that make me a bad person? If a religious person is against pre-marital sex, and they are critical of those who engage in the activity, does that mean that they "hate"?

if you point out a statistic, does that make you a bigot?

[mjr]

Double post, sorry.

[TheHuckster]

These are two different things, and I'll tell you why:

A person's pronoun is similar to their name. If someone asks you to call them by a certain name, no matter if it's just a nickname, a respectful name, or simply how they want to be called, then refusing to do that is disrespectful and insulting. To refer to Caitlyn as "he" is no less insulting than to refer to me as "she," at least if I had first told you I identify as a male.

The statements you're using as examples are your criticism of them. If you think someone is a lazy mooch and you call them out on it, then that's fine. If you keep referring to the person's name as "Mooch" to their disapproval, then you're starting to get into petty namecalling.

[Andara Bledin]

But that wouldn't be me. That would be something called "biology".

See? But if someone holds a position like this, they could be called "hateful" or "bigoted".

No, calling someone who identifies as a "her" and has requested you call her "her" as a "him" is being disrespectful, rude, and potentially a bigot.

Gender is largely a social construct. It's a useful one, true, but that doesn't change the fact that unless you're planning to get intimate with someone's nether regions, it doesn't matter a whole hell of a lot what they've got going on down there.

So if you don't identify with "either" (since I'm told there are multiple) gender, how should you be referred to?

However you request you be referred to.

Unless the person is a jerk, anyway.

Or you want to be referred to by something ridiculous like Princess Angelina Contessa Louisa Francesca Banana Fanna Bo Besca III. For that latter, don't be surprised when people just call you Dot.

...

Ultimately, you can be correct and still be an asshole about it. Just because you believe the facts say something specific, doesn't mean that action must be taken based on those facts, just because it can.

[Aragarthiel]

Just because you believe the facts say something specific, doesn't mean that action must be taken based on those facts, just because it can.

I agree completely with this. If you MUST be bigoted, you can at least try to be tolerant and keep it to yourself. It's when you feel the need to tell someone that they're wrong/going to hell/a bad person because they were born looking or feeling a certain way that you yourself become a bad person. I like the color blue, but that doesn't give anyone the right to say that I'm a bad person just because I don't like red more. Color preferences, just like gender identity, have nothing to do with who a person is. Nobody else may be able to explain how someone can feel like a gender they were not born as, but how do I explain why I like blue? I just do. It's a part of who I am.