American police will be operating in Canada

[Pixilated]

I put this in politics because I have no doubt that's at the basis for it.

Armed American police will be operating on Canadian soil, at the invitation of our smarmy suckup prime minister and his cronies.

And to pile insult on top of insult, American police are demanding to be exempt from Canadian laws.

I am angry beyond belief. Yes, the deal is supposed to work both ways, so I'm wondering what Americans think about Canadian police operating on their "turf" -- particularly if that exemption goes both ways.

My feeling is that Canada has its own well-trained, competent law enforcement services, and we have reciprocal treaties with other countries, including the U.S. I see no reason to have the police of any foreign nation operating in my country.

Thoughts?

[Hyena Dandy]

My thoughts are that Article 2 raises an interesting question, and Article 1 is a partisan spin-job.

But that's just an initial read, I may be wrong, and article 2 is actually the one which has the facts mixed up. But since they contradict each-other, I tend towards the facts presented in the news article over the opinion piece.

Edit: I do think someone concerned about fact-free advertisements, a noble concern, would do well to make sure his article isn't written in such a misleading (though not quite explicitly false) way.

[Greenday]

My feeling is that Canada has its own well-trained, competent law enforcement services, and we have reciprocal treaties with other countries, including the U.S. I see no reason to have the police of any foreign nation operating in my country.

Thoughts?

Do you think Canadian police are perfect and as such, are unable to learn ANYTHING new? If the answer isn't a 100% yes, then there's reason for stuff like this. We do it with our military. Why not police? It's all about teaching each other new things. Maybe American border patrol have some techniques that are more effective in certain areas and Canadian border patrol have techniques that are better in other areas. Is it so horrible that they work together to teach each other to be better at their jobs?

[s_stabeler]

quick correction- while the request re: American police not being subject to Canadian law was made, it was in fact refused outright. As for American police being on Canadian soil, in the context given, it's not really a problem ( and the RCMP actually has worldwide jurisdiction already) although if they were doing anything other than customs work, I would be concerned.

[Greenday]

I think asking for immunity is kind of ridiculous, but I think the exchange programs are great. The military does it all the time. It serves as a great way to form stronger diplomatic bonds.

[Andara Bledin]

Also, enforcement exchange programs help both sides understand how the other operates, which should reduce the potential for miscommunications and other embarrassing and potentially dangerous problems.

[Panacea]

Do you think Canadian police are perfect and as such, are unable to learn ANYTHING new? If the answer isn't a 100% yes, then there's reason for stuff like this. We do it with our military. Why not police? It's all about teaching each other new things. Maybe American border patrol have some techniques that are more effective in certain areas and Canadian border patrol have techniques that are better in other areas. Is it so horrible that they work together to teach each other to be better at their jobs?

Cross training with other departments is a great idea. However, the issue of exempting our officers from Canadian laws is and should be a non-starter for Canada. We make this demand everywhere we try to send troops, and it causes more problems than it solves. We've had a lot of blow back in Japan over the behavior of our servicemen, and we had to change the policy as a result, but sore feelings still remain.

Exempting our servicemen or police officers makes sense in a country like Iraq with a long history of corruption and brutality that would make it impossible to get the accused a fair trial. However, Canada is not Iraq. Their courts and legal systems are similar to our own, and the integrity of their police and courts are impeccable. So there was no reason to make this kind of demand other than a reflexive "we want it." It got spun out of control, and is creating bad feelings, the opposite of what we want from our relations with Canada.

quick correction- while the request re: American police not being subject to Canadian law was made, it was in fact refused outright. As for American police being on Canadian soil, in the context given, it's not really a problem ( and the RCMP actually has worldwide jurisdiction already) although if they were doing anything other than customs work, I would be concerned.

I'm not sure what you mean by the statement the RCMP have worldwide jurisdiction. They have NO jurisdiction in the US unless they're working in a joint operation with US authorities, and I find it hard to believe they could go to South Africa and arrest someone there without the cooperation of the local cops.

[Salted Grump]

The RCMP is the national police force so their jurisdiction is, effectively, all of Canada; Provincial and Municipal police forces are what the average John Q Public would encounter though, so stories of the RCMP basically ignoring city or provincial lines to nail a perp kinda got exaggerated to 'They'll always get you, no matter where you run'

The fact that the RCMP works very closely with Interpol and other National police forces, and very often has a representative officer when an international fugitive is arrested adds to the stories.

In regards to the US basically demanding that they be rendered exempt from any legal shenanigans in Canada by their LEOs when they're on a cross-training venture, however? Yeah, that's a very good way to make a lot of people north of the 49th even less-inclined to be polite towards our neighbours.

As Panacea said, making that argument in an area where the general public considers you a hostile entity, and you're likely to get into fights or worse just by existing, eg. Iraq, Afghanistan, et al. makes sense, because at least then the LEOs or Soldiers still have to answer to 'Home' Laws, instead of kangaroo courts of 'guilty for being foreign'. Demanding the same exemption from your next-door neighbour, even on a national scale, is basically saying 'So, we're going to let our dogs shit all over your yard, and you'll be happy to clean up after us, right?'

All it does is foster negativity, and strain relations.

[lordlundar]

I'm not sure what you mean by the statement the RCMP have worldwide jurisdiction. They have NO jurisdiction in the US unless they're working in a joint operation with US authorities, and I find it hard to believe they could go to South Africa and arrest someone there without the cooperation of the local cops.

Actually they do have international jurisdiction along similar lines as INTERPOL. It's not a case of "we can go anywhere we want and you can't stop us" though. It's more along the lines of "we're pursuing a suspect to bring back to trial in Canada and we need your help." So long as the suspect does not have amnesty, local law enforcement is required to assist the RCMP when they show up. The RCMP doesn't have to wait for extradition either as an arrest by an RCMP or local law enforcement working with them is considered equal to an arrest on Canadian soil.

To add to this, a perfect example would be someone trying to do a border escape. If a criminal tries to flee from the US to Mexico, Once they are decidedly past the border area US authorities cannot do anything as the Mexican police are not required to turn him over. So long as the criminal doesn't break Mexican law he's in the clear. If it was a criminal trying to escape to the US from Canada the same way the RCMP would simply go across the border, inform the local officers they're pursuing a criminal and then said criminal has BOTH the RCMP and local US law enforcement on their ass. Crossing the border to Mexico from the US can mean safety from the law. Crossing the border from Canada to the US just means more police coming after you.

So it's not Carte Blanche independent authority as you might think, but it does have international jurisdiction which grants extra authorities not offered to most other law enforcement agencies.

[daleduke17]

The RCMP is the national police force so their jurisdiction is, effectively, all of Canada; Provincial and Municipal police forces are what the average John Q Public would encounter though, so stories of the RCMP basically ignoring city or provincial lines to nail a perp kinda got exaggerated to 'They'll always get you, no matter where you run'

Just to make sure I am correct on the levels of police between the USA and Canada:

Royal Canadian Mounted Police = US Marshal Office
Provincial Police = Highway Patrol/State Police

[wolfie]

However, the issue of exempting our officers from Canadian laws is and should be a non-starter for Canada. We make this demand everywhere we try to send troops, and it causes more problems than it solves.

One incident from before I was born:

The traitor who killed the Arrow invited POTUS to the Canadian equivalent of Camp David. One night, the President's Secret Service detail saw someone they didn't recognize walking around the area, grabbed him, and started interrogating him. It was only when RCMP officers from the local protective detail were called in to assist that the SS recognized who they had grabbed - Diefenbaker.

You can see how this makes it a touchy subject.

[lordlundar]

Just to make sure I am correct on the levels of police between the USA and Canada:

Royal Canadian Mounted Police = US Marshal Office
Provincial Police = Highway Patrol/State Police

Closer to:

RCMP = US Marshal, FBI, ATF, FDA, etc. Essentially any national law enforcement agency. Only ones excluded from that list would be the CIA because our equivalent is CSIS.

[crashhelmet]

One incident from before I was born:

The traitor who killed the Arrow invited POTUS to the Canadian equivalent of Camp David. One night, the President's Secret Service detail saw someone they didn't recognize walking around the area, grabbed him, and started interrogating him. It was only when RCMP officers from the local protective detail were called in to assist that the SS recognized who they had grabbed - Diefenbaker.

You can see how this makes it a touchy subject.

I've never really understood how or why the cancellation of the CF-105 Arrow was such a big deal. I get that it was Canadian designed, built, and basically resulted in the company folding, but that shit happens all of the time.

In my opinion, it was an unfortunate conflict in timing. It was designed to be an interceptor and chase down bombers, but on the same exact day they tried to announce and demonstrate it, the USSR launched Sputnik. The threat was now long range missiles, not bombers. Not to mention that it wasn't even ready for testing when they tried to test it. If I remember correctly, only a small handful ever flew.

[wolfie]

I've never really understood how or why the cancellation of the CF-105 Arrow was such a big deal. I get that it was Canadian designed, built, and basically resulted in the company folding, but that shit happens all of the time.

This was an "ahead of its time" plane (one of the capabilities, sustained turn at a specified speed, "G" force, and altitude - can't recall the exact numbers, without losing speed or altitude, is something the F-15 is barely capable of). What makes it a "hot button" item is that it was canceled as a result of U.S. pressure (they didn't want us to have the capability of intercepting spy planes sent over our territory to snoop on the Soviets).

The U.S. knew we couldn't afford both the Arrow and the Bomarc missile (SAM that due to accuracy issues needed a nuclear warhead to ensure a "kill"). They basically told the Canadian government "If you don't buy the Bomarc and set it up on your side of the Great Lakes, we'll build them and set it up on our side". This would have put the interception area above roughly 50% of the Canadian population.

A government with balls would have told them "That's a bad location - you'll need to move them further back, because Bomarcs based on the southern shore won't have enough warning from the Pine Tree Line to intercept enemy bombers". The implication being that when the first Bomarc was installed in a location where it would set off a nuke over a large Canadian city, the DEW line and the Mid-Canada line (both physically located in Canada) would be shut down.

Not only did they cancel the program, but they ordered all the documents destroyed. Canada went from being a world leader in aviaton technology to having only "niche" low-tech aircraft manufacturing capability (such as De Haviland's bush planes - nothing else could match them in the mission they were designed for, but they were far from the leading edge of technology).

[daleduke17]

Closer to:

RCMP = US Marshal, FBI, ATF, FDA, etc. Essentially any national law enforcement agency. Only ones excluded from that list would be the CIA because our equivalent is CSIS.

Thank you for the information.