I believe in Atheism...

[Evandril]

Concidering I tossed in one from a fictional book...Nope, but I'd give a loose one as something believed to be a diety...since faith is the issue in question. *shrugs* Be glad to hear a better one Though I would argue if the 'omnipotent' lable is a given, as few gods in history have had that label attached to them...Including some currently worshipped.

[Gabrielle Proctor]

All of them require faith. None of them require or have any evidence. Therefore, I would have to entertain the possibility that they all exist.

"Can I prove Zeus does/did not exist? Nope...So I'm neutral on the matter, I've never claimed he does or does not exist. And honestly, I'd be more inclined to believe in Zeus's existance than the Christian god, m'self...Zeus wasn't all powerful, even within the mythos, nor all knowing."

It isn't up to us to disprove God(s). The burden of proof falls on those who make the positive claim for existence(sp?).

I used to consider myself an Agnostic, because I was under the mistaken impression that Atheists were 100% sure that there weren't any Gods. But, when I started to research, I found out that I was an Atheist even though I wasn't 100% sure God(s) wasn't real.

Most Atheists don't have this militant attitude towards the non-existence of God(s). Most of them are pretty sure that God(s) isn't real, but are willing to change their mind when evidence presents itself to support the existence of God(s).

And even though they aren't 100% sure, they aren't going to fall back on God(s) as some kind of default option. It's like a celestial teapot. There could be a teapot orbiting earth right now. It's too small to find and there is no evidence for said teapot. Do I believe in it anyway because it might be there? Nope.

That's pretty much my take on God.

There is no faith required for the non-existence of God(s), just like there is no faith for the non-existence of the celestial teapot.

[Evandril]

I used to consider myself an Agnostic, because I was under the mistaken impression that Atheists were 100% sure that there weren't any Gods. But, when I started to research, I found out that I was an Atheist even though I wasn't 100% sure God(s) wasn't real.

Could you give me a reference for that, please? Not saying you're wrong, but it does go against what I was taught the word meant, when I was studying Philosophy. I know quite a few people who call themselves atheists don't take that hard of a stance...but I also know quite a few people who call themselves 'christians'....and I'd never give them credit for that title I am weird, though, I tend to enjoy being proven wrong...means I get to learn something new

[Slytovhand]

One small bit to chuck in there...

There may not be a teapot now, but there may be in the future...

Meaning, some sort of Divine Being may have created this universe, and then sodded off. Or is down here walking amongst us, forgotten it's true nature, and has absolutely no idea what's going on.

Or we're just one of many creations, and we've currently been shelved for something with more colours

None of this helps the argument in anyway possible

But... isn't it science's role to disprove theories? (ok, sure, when did science enter this debate...). I don't think anyone has to prove (or disprove) anything. But I do think we all have the brain cells to accept some things when they are blatantly obvious ... (not withstanding the whole 'we are all figments of an imagination' theory).

Ev... I'd be interested in the definition of Christian then... I only figure it means to believe that JC is the one and only son of the one and only God, and unless you believe in Him and that he sacrificed himself for your immortal soul's entry into heaven (presuming you keep believing that), - then you're a Christian...

You've got something different?

[Gabrielle Proctor]

Could you give me a reference for that, please?

I could give you TONS. You should check out "The Foundational Falsehoods of Christianity" by Aron-ra on youtube. I think he has a video that talks about the topic of this thread. I just don't know which one it is. There are like, 14 of them and I don't have a couple hours of free time to find it.

Keep in mind it's not like anyone told me that most Atheists are like what I just described, I discovered it on my own by being a part of the community. I guess that would be the biggest reference.

Ev... I'd be interested in the definition of Christian then... I only figure it means to believe that JC is the one and only son of the one and only God, and unless you believe in Him and that he sacrificed himself for your immortal soul's entry into heaven (presuming you keep believing that), - then you're a Christian...

You've got something different?

I think he means that a lot of Christians don't practice what they preach.

[Gabrielle Proctor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTsP_vBuZUM

This was just put on youtube 3 hours ago. Quite a coincidence lol. I was like, "Snap! I found a video about what I was JUST talking about!"

This covers a lot of ground for my position. Even a definition of Atheism for Evandril.

[protege]

Here's something to ponder. Why is it that people who go around spouting off that they believe in (and I apologize for the analogy...but it's the best I could come up with) someone who is more-or-less an "invisible friend" is considered "sane" for the most part. Yet, someone else, who believes in space aliens, and goes on about them with the same fervor, is considered crazy? Why one, and not the other...especially since there's no *absolute* proof that *either* exists?

As for me, well, I'm an agnostic. I simply got tired of having religion forced down my throat growing up. Well, that and being told by various idiots in grade school (a *Catholic* one at that) that I'd never amount to anything, plus being told that I was "going to hell" constantly for various "offenses," etc. meant I'd had enough. Maybe God does exist, maybe he doesn't. Either way, I have bigger things to worry about--getting the bills paid on time, my job, etc.

Believe what you want, but don't attempt to force it down my throat.

[Evandril]

Ev... I'd be interested in the definition of Christian then... I only figure it means to believe that JC is the one and only son of the one and only God, and unless you believe in Him and that he sacrificed himself for your immortal soul's entry into heaven (presuming you keep believing that), - then you're a Christian...

You've got something different?

I'd thought, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you both had to believe that, and *try* to emulate him, and do your best to live according to the 'rules' in the bible. The ones preaching hate from a doctorine based off of love...yeah, not people *I* would call Christian, though they themselves do fairly often.

Protege, another good one...Catholics who believe in saints...as long as it's noone they know. Anyone they know who claims to be a saint tends to be viewed as insane by their 'friends', from my experience. Agreed, though, when you have odds of a billion to one on life existing someplace else...and ten billion other stars...by the odds, that's ten other places with life (All numbers purely imaginary, btw...The one time I looked at the 'odds', though, it was less than the guesstimate of other stars...By a significant amount)

[Boozy]

Here's something to ponder. Why is it that people who go around spouting off that they believe in (and I apologize for the analogy...but it's the best I could come up with) someone who is more-or-less an "invisible friend" is considered "sane" for the most part. Yet, someone else, who believes in space aliens, and goes on about them with the same fervor, is considered crazy? Why one, and not the other...especially since there's no *absolute* proof that *either* exists?

This is a very good point.

I think the difference between believing in God and believing in aliens is that one is incredibly unlikely based on what we know of the universe and its laws, and one is at least possible based on those same laws. There's no proof of either - and yet if you were to tell me that there will be proof of either God or intelligent alien life within my lifetime, I'd put money on the latter.

Whether or not I think you're crazy for being religious or believing in aliens is another matter. If you say you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, I don't think you're crazy. You've just chosen to take a leap of faith because you find a certain form of spirituality/religion helpful and comforting. But if you say you're the reincarnation of Jesus himself, and are attempting to convert others in preparation for the end of the world on some specific date in the near future, I'd say you're either nuts or a con artist.

Likewise with belief in aliens. If you believe in aliens because you've reflected on the vastness of the universe, of which we have only charted an unimaginably small fraction, and think the odds are good that there are other intelligent life forms out there, then I can respect that. It's a different story if you believe that aliens are probing your anus on a nightly basis.

[Jadedcarguy]

Here's something to ponder. Why is it that people who go around spouting off that they believe in (and I apologize for the analogy...but it's the best I could come up with) someone who is more-or-less an "invisible friend" is considered "sane" for the most part.

These same people will call someone like myself foolish or stupid or even worse, just evil for saying, "Ya know, I just don't buy it."

The delusion runs deep.

[Flyndaran]

Why is it a leap of faith to believe in ridiculous religions but delusion for EVERY other lunatic idea?

[Jadedcarguy]

Why is it a leap of faith to believe in ridiculous religions but delusion for EVERY other lunatic idea?

Define lunatic.

[Evandril]

Why is it a leap of faith to believe in ridiculous religions but delusion for EVERY other lunatic idea?

Because the ideas that are concidered 'lunatic' tend to have a good deal of proof against them...IE, flat earth theories, and the like. There are quite a few 'lunatic' ideas that have been proven *CORRECT*, so perhaps believing in more than what we 'know' isn't always a bad thing?

[Slytovhand]

Define lunatic.

Followers of a lunar cult

I'd say the issue with having faith in some deity, vs actually saying you are the reincarnation of said avatar, is evidence. Not easy to convince 'god' to come down and do a quick bit of miracles just to prove a point, but certainly shouldn't be an issue if the reincarnation of JC is in front of you, why wouldn't they do something more interesting than hankies up sleeves type tricks?? After all, if he was serious about being followed, he'd give reason to believe - not just say "Hey guys, it's me, I'm back...now - worship!".

I can't see why deity and aliens can't be in the same beliefs... well, for that matter, I know they can... cos I do!

Ev - yeah, someone did some sort of calculation regarding intelligent evolved life elsewhere (go on, someone tell us his name ).... reduction from number of stars in the universe, reduced by number of stars with planets, number of planets with atmosphere, # of atmosphere capable of sustaining life, # been around to keep life going and evolving, # where evolution has gotten life to advanced state. I think he was using a ratio of 100:1 (every 100 stars had 1 planet, etc). Still, turned out to be a very large number... just a long way away... and still had a few in our galaxy alone.

Oh yeah - invisible friend. You're only sane if the conversations go 1 way. When God starts speaking back to you, then there's a problem. (of course, that depends on what 'god' tells you... somehow, 'god' is all peaceful and loving... so it's bad to be told to kill people... I dunno)

[Jadedcarguy]

so perhaps believing in more than what we 'know' isn't always a bad thing?

Actually, it is. Belief in the unlikely without evidence of any sort is utter horseshit.

If I told you I 'believed' the sun would rise in the morning you'd go along with it. If I told you the moon would rise in the late afternoon you'd be fine with it. Why? Because that's what both celestial bodies have done for countless millennia.

Now, if I told you that the sun would not rise, but instead the moon would spin backwards and spread fire and hate and pain against all who didn't believe it would do such a thing, you'd laugh at me and call me a fool, and rightly so. If I gathered 10,000 other individuals who shared my delusion you'd still be skeptical.

Why?


Because it would be horseshit! You and everyone else would know better. Yet, without evidence and in spite of vast evidence against such a notion, billions, fucking BILLIONS, believe in an invisible sky daddy who is obsessively concerned with their well-being (and bedroom behavior) while ignoring the millions of starving children simply because they haven't been fucking saved.

A deity of that nature is not deserving of worship or adoration.