The US Economy

[rahmota]

Ok hows this for debateable.....The Economy.

Everybody talks about it. Everybody is affected by it. But doing anythig about it seems to be the worst possible thign a person can do if it involves either raising taxes on the rich or throwing more controls on the way business is done.

I mean socialism, communism or controlled capitalism is right up there with anti-christ in the hatred department. But free market cpaitalism with no restrictions on how businesses may rape plundar and pillage people is sung hosanas so far up their butts its coming out their nose.

Right now we've been seeing the results of how the way the republicans have been letting business get away with downright murder is affecting things. We went from a budget surplus to a bigger debt than we have had. The rich are still getting richer the poor are hurting worse than ever before and the middle class is bent so far over they are about out of K-Y. Businesses are laying people off. We have the highest unemployed rate in a long long time.

The housing issues. The stock market. And while yeah according to the definition of economists and the government we are not in a recession just how bad do people have to be hurt before they recognize that a lot of the bloated lies that our economy is funded by and founded on are not putting bread on a lot of people's tables. That stocks are not money they are potential money. And you cant spend potential money.

I've mentioend before that I'm not a capitalist. I had issues with my economy professor in college because I refused to obey the edicts and sing the hosannas of free market capitalism and declare any governmental controls to be evil from teh ninth dimension. But it is giongn to come a time when somethign is goign to have to be done. Uncontrolled debt and unchecked expansion cannot continue indefinately. If a private citizen managed their money the way the government does or some businesses do then we'd be under the poor house or at least a overpass.

I think we need a drastic and dramatic overhaul of the way business is done. And soon before things get too bad. Reign in a lot of this BS goign on right now. Institute price controls, wage controls. Bring a lot of the CEOS, athletes, politicians, and movie stars salaries back into alignment with how much real work they do.

Right now our money is just an IOU from the government. Which means its only as good as the government says it is. This is not a good thing. having somethign real and tangible to back the money other than the good name of the government and the business world is not a bad idea. I mean just printing more IOUs results in a lot of the inflation of prices we see in the world now.

I mean what logical and reasonable cause is there for something to increase its price if there is no other factors other than the simple pure greed of the company doing it or the IOU is worth less. I mean look at the price of corn based products and soybean based products. People claim the increase in prices is because the farmers are making more. NO! That is BS. I got paid just marginally more last year than I did the year before. But my expenses went up faster than my profits. If things keep goign I may give up on farming and just rent the land out and let someone else deal with it.

Anyhow. This country is goign down the tubes. We have religious zealots tryig to control the way people think and feel. We have companies trying to lie cheat and steal the last dollar out of your wallet. We have clueless politicians vying to see how much popular power they can get ahold of for their villas and estates. I swear it feels like the closing days of the Roman Republic and the start of the Roman Empire all over again.

But back to the economy. FDR put forth several thigns that helped bring this country out of the Depression. If WWII hadnt come around it would have taken a bit longer but they would have worked. WWII did jumpstart the economy back then a lot quicker and a lot of economists do give all the credit to the war and none to FDR's programs. Some even say that they were unamerican and worsened the depression. (My former professor was one of them). And speakign of the Great Depression anyone else note some of the same trends coming around this time? Great amounts of personal debt. Excesses by big business. The whole buy til it hurts attitude fostered by King George. The drought affecting things. Fuel prices.

Is there anythign that can be done? I mean I'm all for removing the greed factor from the economy. But it is so entrentched right now and the way the power elite run things it wouldnt be easy to do so. I love this coutry and I wouldnt want to give up the individual rights and liberties but I dont see how they apply to business. Businesses are not people and do not deserve much of the bill of rights. Especially the megacorps. So without dismantling everything and rebuilding it what are we goign to be able to do?

I'm sorry if this soudns redundant, unfocused or the rantigns of a lunatic but I'm a very fed up citizen. I would like to see this country live up to the lip service it has paid for itself over the years. Enough deficit spending. Enough payoffs and paybacks and imperialistic saber ratling. Defend the coury but fix our own yard up first before we go play in someone elses.

[Seshat]

Ok hows this for debateable.....The Economy.

I'm assuming you mean the US economy? Want one of the mods to change the thread title to 'The US Economy'?

[rahmota]

Seshat: Yeah that would work I guess. Although with the global trade and the way our markets and economy affects others I'm not sure what other title would be appropriate . I'll trust you to come up with something appropriate okay?

Anyhow throwing this definition out for consideration:
An economy is the manipulation of perceived values of resources and the means to acquire those resources.

[Seshat]

Okay. I set this one to be the US economy specifically, though it'll overlap with the international/global economy thread I'm about to start. But most of the material in your opening post is US-specific, so I figure making this one US-specific works best.

[Greenday]

Inflation...high
Unemployment...4.6%, which is 13.8 million people
National Debt...ridiculous
Worth of a dollar...somewhat low
Majority of the wealth in this country is held by a small minority
Public opinion run by the media
Largest consumer of cocaine
Government gaining more power and the people are losing power

Yep, we're screwed.

[protege]

Part of the problem, is that everybody wants high wages, but also low prices on things. Well, both things *cannot* exist. Wage increases are why prices go up--to pay for them, companies have to look somewhere, and pass that along to consumers in the form of higher prices.

What's going on with China, is that their labor rates are *much* lower than ours. As a result, many companies are choosing to manufacture goods over there. It's either that, or lose out to imported goods...and companies that lose, usually aren't around very long.

Part of the problem, was years ago, American companies got complacent with things, and didn't change fast enough. Look at what happened to our auto industry in the 1970s. When the gas shortages hit, the Big 4 (American Motors was still around then), were still turning out land yachts. Sales of smaller Japanese cars took off. People forget about the past, and then bitch about the future. Odd that the same thing would happen about 30 years later...

As to public opinion being controlled by the media...that's not unique to the US. Al-Jazeera has a reputation for their own "spin" on news stories...

[rahmota]

Seshat: thank you. this works out nicely. And yeah there may be some overlap but it should work out.

Greenday: yeah we're screwed. now what to do about it. Or is it too late and people need to just give up and let everythign fall and rebuild from the ashes? I'm becming perfectly content to do either one. I live on the farm. I'm tryign to become as self sufficient as the amish. If the economy fell they'd not notice much really. It would be a real non-event to them regardless of how much they appear to need us outsiders. But some people would be majorly shafted that are in the cities and unable to be as self-sufficient.

Take control of the situation? Everytime the government takes control of the economy people scream like the government are clubbing kittens to death with puppies on the 6 o clock news dressed in bondage gear. I mean its insane. And not to say that government intervention is the best idea with the current attitudes of the ones in power. Thats just what we need to give these people even more power.

Figure out some way for the system to be more stable. Less susceptable to greed and manipulation by those who do not have the best interests of the people at mind.

Protege: Thing is people want wages that are high enough to pay for the goods and services that are needed to survive AND have enough left over to have some liesure/fun activities. Also people look up the ivory tower and see the CEOs sitting around making 100-500 times what they the front line workers do. I don't agree with that either. One reason i would favor a maximum wage as well as a minimum wage.

You say that wages go up so prices have to go up? Well if you do not allow increases in prices through price controls then companies have to figure out a way to reduce their costs. This can be by removeing payroll. That would be bad as then they might get below a point where they can continue to produce and the company fails. Reducing quality well if quality standards are more stringent and enforced that can't happen. Reducing CEO and executive salaries down to somethign more sensible and reasonable would work to help in that regards. Using more productive technologies and being more responsive to changes would be beneficial to companies. Especially if a company which takes jobs out of the US is punished and held responsible for the removeal of those jobs. Say foricng the company to pay a million dollars to any displaced worker they fire due to outsourceing. Make it more painful for them to move a company out of the country than it would be to improve their conditions here.

anyhow. About the value of things. All value is perceived. I can go out to the chicken coop and get an egg. That egg is worth what? Its 1 egg. That can be my breakfast tomorrow. i can take it down to the Amish and barter it for maybe a stick of butter or some honey candy. 1 egg doesnt get much. To a starving person that egg could be worth more than their car. It would be dishonorable though to take the car in response to that though because it is a chicken egg. It is worth an egg. I could charge say 1 dollar for 1 egg. In a year under inflation supposedly just because time has passed that egg is now worth a 1.50$ why? Its still an egg. the chickens are not doing any more work. The cost related to the chickens hasnt gone up. But businesses say they can charge more just because time has passed.

and as for the public being controlled by the media thats old news. Look at the Yellow Journalism and the way thigns where manipulated for the Spanish American War. the media sells drama. Supposedly just the facts wont sell anything. One reason why newsmedia should be legally restricted in not making a profit off the news. Only the facts. no editorializing or spinning anything. too bad there arnt really vulcans. bring them in to run all the news media.

Anyhow. given that we the people are screwed as has been stated earlier. What can we do about it? What are you doing about it? Why should we worry?

[rahmota]

Oh man I just saw this on the news tonight. Exxon Mobil made 40 BILLION dollars in Profits over the last year. 11 BILLION of that in the last quarter!!!!! Thats a profit return of 65%. You cannot tell me that these bastards are not doing this on purpose to try and rape people as much as they possibly can. And not only that but they receive SUBSIDIES!

I mean yeah farmers get subsidies as well but for the most part not even close to the same degree of subsidiy as the Oil Companies. When a company is making 40 billion dollars in profit they are not hurting for money and do not need to be subsidized. When they make 40 BILLION in profits they are doing somethign immoral, illegal, indecent or all of the above.

What they do need to be done is brought under control and forced to set their prices more fairly. This is why I would not cry one bit to see the Oil companies nationalized and run for the common good. Impose some price and profit controls on them.

And people wonder why I keep threatening to go Amish and tell the world to eff off!

[Boozy]

I mean yeah farmers get subsidies as well but for the most part not even close to the same degree of subsidiy as the Oil Companies.

Maybe not, but American farmers are the most heavily subsidized in the world. The US dumps cheap food on the world market at heavy losses. Small agricultural nations can't compete. What worse is that imported food from the US is often cheaper than homegrown food in many places. This is immoral and environmentally reckless behaviour.

Some of these subsidies are a direct violation of numerous trade agreements, including NAFTA. The US thumbs their nose at trade agreements they willingly entered into, and the World Trade Organization does nothing.

The WTO is in the pockets of US corporations anyway. But I'll spare you all and save that rant for another thread.

This is probably a sore point with me. My dad's a Canadian farmer.

[rahmota]

Boozy:Well yeah I suppose so. Subsidies are one of the most contentious thigns in the economic picture in america. I personally do not get any federal or state monies for my farm. So I can agree that the programs are rather screwed up.

then again what isnt any more.

[AFPheonix]

It's really only the big farmers who farm corn and wheat who benefit from the farm subsidies. Up until this most recent bill, the veggie farmers and others in California and states other than the midwestern ones weren't getting anything.

Futhermore, the way the subsidies work make it so farmers have to farm larger and larger tracts of land to get by, buying out their neighbors who leave town. It's part of the reason why small towns are dying off in the middle of our country.

It also contributes to the homogenizing of our food supply into corn-based or refined flour-based foods, rather than a variety of good vegetables available everywhere.

But the farm lobby is a powerful ones. The very people who do not benefit from the subsidies are the ones held up as the reason to continue them. It's dirty politics that helps no one.

[Boozy]

Subsidies are one of the most contentious thigns in the economic picture in america. I personally do not get any federal or state monies for my farm.

Of course you don't. You're not a rich corporation. Honest, hard-working family farmers still get screwed.

And AFPheonix is right that subsidies are hurting America too, not just the international community.

[rahmota]

AFP/Boozy: You are very correct in your assessment of things. I have 64 acres total and of them 50 are agrable. So I do not own enough land to qualify for most of the programs and the programs I do qualify for would take too much land out of production to make it worth while.

This whole coutry is effed up the stovepipe unless you are rich and powerful corporate big wigs. So whens the next revolution?

I mean a company makes a 40 BILLION dollar profit and there is no investigation or outcry by those in power that the company is doing anythign wrong immoral or illegal is just an example of how its okay to rape plundar and pillage if you're rich and corporate and cronies of the King.

[daleduke17]

Rahmota -

I agree about Exxon/Mobil and them making 40 Billion in profits. I don't get gas at any Mobil stations, kind of in protest (now, if the tank is empty and Mobil is the only station, I grin and bear it).

We're paying 3.xx/gallon for gas and they're crying "oh, if we can't raise prices we'll go broke." Bull. "Well, demand is so high and supply so low." Build another plant (if they can get past the EPA and other people).

I'll leave right now with the words of Christopher Titus: "Our President is a Texas oilman and we're wondering why we're paying 3.00/gallon".

[protege]

We're paying 3.xx/gallon for gas and they're crying "oh, if we can't raise prices we'll go broke." Bull. "Well, demand is so high and supply so low." Build another plant (if they can get past the EPA and other people).

That's *exactly* why the supply is low. There's simply not enough refineries here. In fact, one of the Saudi oil people was quoted as saying something like "why should we produce more? It's not like the Americans have the capacity to handle it." Demand is simply outstripping the capacity to produce...and, along with the damn oil speculators, is driving prices up. Keep in mind too, that not all of the oil goes into making gasoline--plenty goes to heating oil, paint, plastics, and other things we use.

As for CEO pay, that's usually subject to the board of directors. How they can justify getting paid that much, is up to the board. However, for some companies...those that were built from scratch, I don't know about you, but if I'm the one putting up my own cash (i.e., taking all the risk), shouldn't I be compensated for it, and be entitled to what's left? Why should I be penalized?

Also, if we make everyone's pay equal, what's the point in trying to move up, or to get ahead? I think eventually, that'll do some real damage--look at the failed companies in Eastern Europe and the former USSR. They had some serious problems--workers just didn't give a shit; no matter how hard they worked (or if they worked at all!) they still made the same amount. Even now, the idea of "working to better oneself" is a strange one in some areas over there--the former East Germany is having problems with severe unemployment now.

When the Iron Curtain came down, many of those companies failed. The only reason those companies survived...was because the governments restricted trade. That is, sales on most Western goods were restricted or banned. People suddenly had a choice. For example, they were no longer forced to by the two-stroke Trabants, Ladas, and other outdated cars. 10-year-old BMW and Mercedes became hot commodities. Now, the former Trabant factories in East Germany lie idled. Poland's FSO auto factory is now a GM facility, etc.