Voices pt2

[Gilhelmi]

Reposted with permission of Peppergirl.

OP here

First, Thank you to the people who PMed me with words of support and encouragement. I wish you could have joined me in discussion before.

I originally meant that thread to be more of a discussion on the stigma of Mental Conditions. But alas, it reminded me why I never mentioned this to anyone outside my closest friends, family, and advisers. (and the anonymity of the Internet)

In the Army, I was a Chaplains Assistant. When trained on PTSD, we were taught that Silence kills. Open discussion helps to protect people, it helps to heal people. Silence, forces a person inward into downward path of despair, that can lead to loss of life. I have never been one to be silent. (cautious, but not silent)

"Hate begets Hate; Anger begets Anger; Love begets Love; Peace begets Peace"

When I was young, maybe age 6, I started to hear a voice. I spoke to it and it responded. Even in prayer, we had discussions, instead of just asking for things. ex: "I pray for guidance on my school work, oh Lord." "What do you need to do?" "To remember to do my assignments and turn them in on time." "OK, how can we help you remember?" "By helping me to write down notes." just an example, conversations could range from everything political-religious-personal-fun topics (like Star Trek ). I thought nothing odd of this. When I was about 15, I mentioned how I pray to my Youth Minister. He thought it was funny and loved the way I prayed. (like the country song, "talked to God like he was talking to a friend")

That was the first time I realized it was unusual.

Later on (in my mid 20s), I mentioned it to a professional counselor, one that I knew I could trust my life to. They said not to worry about it unless the voices become dangerous to myself or others.

The voices have taught me love and peace. They have talked me down from being stupid, they have rejoiced in my victories, they have been with me through thick and thin. I can tell there are between 3 to 5 distinct personalities, but all of them 'sing in the same choir', meaning they agree about the major points (though we do have intellectual debates from time to time). Are they Angels? Are they my dead ancestors making sure I live right by God? Are the voices just my own means of decision making, and part of myself, without any supernatural force at play? Who knows, and I do not care. They are my friends, just as my 'real' friends are. I stress again, they have never tried to tell me to be violent or hateful, NEVER.

I am in full control of my mind and body. All decisions I make are my responsibility. If anyone in my "choir" has an issue with this, the door is there. If they become disruptive, I will kick him/her out.

BUT, whenever I mention them in conversation (online) someone inevitably suggests I seek mental help. I always ask 'why'. Why should I suppress voices that are no threat to me or others? Why should I go on dangerous psycho-pharmaceuticals that will only lower my quality of life?

This type of thinking reminds me of past tragedies. In the not-to-distant-past, homosexuals (mostly men) were committed to mental institutions for simply being different. Witch hunts played off of suspicions raised about people who did not conform to their communities. Tragic mistakes, all bound to repeat time and time again because no one thinks about these things.

Mental Conditions is different from mental injuries and mental illnesses.
-Mental Conditions is like your skin color, some people are different from you, some are the same. No one is better, no one is worse. Everyone has one (or two ).
-Mental Injuries is when an extraordinary, outside, event happens. PTS and PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) are examples of this. War (for a common example) is a very unusual and extreme event, and PTS is a normal response to this (Think of PTS as a wound, and PTSD as an infection from not taking care of the wound). I was taught 2 things, "It is weirder if you do not get PTS while in combat" and "If you have a broken leg, no one would think worse of you to get help. It should be the same for PTSD".
-Mental Illness, is a lot like Mental Injuries, except it is caused by genetics or toxins (like lead poisoning, smoking/drinking while pregnant, ect.). They sometimes need more help but, more often, you do not even know if a person has a mental illness because they are taking care of it (Same thing as getting a flu that might last all your life, annoying but manageable). It should be nothing to be ashamed of.

I am different then most people, I know. Personally, I like the word eccentric . (like a wealthy business man who builds robots in his garage, with lasers, and arms, and Laser Arms!!! ) But, so what? Why should I conform to the full standards of the world? It sounds a lot like "The Giver" (book, I have not seen the new movie) or "1984". Pop a pill so that none stands out (Double-Plus-Good Duck Speak).

"Hate begets Hate; Anger begets Anger; Love begets Love; Peace begets Peace"

Understanding begets Understanding.

[Gravekeeper]

Its reassuring that you haven't run screaming from the site after the first thread. The alleviates a goodly amount of my concerns.

BUT, whenever I mention them in conversation (online) someone inevitably suggests I seek mental help. I always ask 'why'. Why should I suppress voices that are no threat to me or others? Why should I go on dangerous psycho-pharmaceuticals that will only lower my quality of life?

As we covered, rather extensively, in the first thread the concern was two fold: 1) That there may be an underlying physical condition or disease at the root of it and 2) If it is indeed on the schizophrenia spectrum its likely it will get worse and may one day become something that does interfere with your quality of life such as the chorus of voices growing too large to deal with for example. No one's suggesting you go drug yourself up and crawl into a rubber room. Just that you involve someone for whom this is their area of expertise ( IE. Not a counselor ).

When you say things like comparing this to witch hunts that raises a red flag me. Because paranoia and/or a feeling of possible persecution are symptoms of schizophrenia. Ones that often lead to people with the condition not seeking medical advice or help. You insist you are rational but are making an irrational argument. That is a cause for concern.

In fairness, I do not know you in real life and thus cannot draw on your behaviour or mannerisms to tell one way or another. I can only state my opinion as an outside observer. Which seems to be what you are asking for here.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'll tell you were I'm coming from. Because its not like I don't know where you're coming from. I'm actually worse off than you to be bluntly honest because I *can't* function in day to day life. I have PTSD and its taken almost 2 years and some odd 6 different medications to get me to the point I'm at now. Where I am not just curled into a ball of terror and nerves in a dark corner of my living room. I've been through every step of this. Including 2 ER visits and a trip to the psych ward at the hospital for evaluation.

Its taken me this long just to get to a point to where I can, well, basically exist without being completely overrun by my symptoms. I still get overrun on a fairly regular basis. I mean, I can't leave the house and go more than 3 or 4 blocks by myself. I'll unhinged into fear and panic. I teeter between terror and depression off and on. I can't function at all for about one week every month. The rest of the time I'm 50/50.

I have 2 meds for the PTSD and 1 for the chronic pain ( which complicates matters considerably ). As a fun extra, my medications cause auditory and rarely visual hallucinations. But, without said doctors and medications, I would frankly be dead.

I would have just thrown myself in front of a bus months ago to be bluntly honest.

A good doctor is there to help you. Not persecute you or dope you up against your will or anything. You're by no means incapacitated or legally unable to make decisions for yourself. They can't make you do anything you don't want to do so you have nothing to lose but possibly something to gain.

[Panacea]

I only skimmed the first thread, didn't participate. Some of the things being said made me frankly uncomfortable.

Certainly when someone hears voices, the possibility of mental illness should be explored.

However, functionality in ones life is a big clue as to what we're really dealing with. People who are mentally ill, even mildly, don't function well. They can't hold down a job, they can't maintain relationships, they abuse drugs or alcohol, or any combination therein.

People who hear voices who function: they keep a job, they don't abuse substances, they have extensive social relationships, they have joyful lives . . . what are they really hearing?

I don't know. It's not my place to judge.

I will mention what brought me back to church and eventually led to my converting to Catholicism.

In 1999 I was undergoing a personal crisis. I had moved half way across the country to go to school. I had a good job and a good social network of friends. But my relationship with my best friend was on the rocks, and I had serious money problems related to my divorce, which had just finalized. I was having a hard time coping.

I did the smart thing: I sought counseling. The college had a really good social worker who was a licensed therapist; I was able to get free therapy while a student there and that definitely helped me get through things.

Meanwhile, I had a good friend who was Catholic who kept inviting me to go to church with her and her fiance. I kept turning them down. But one day I decided to go. At one point during Mass, we were standing (during the reading of the Gospel IIRC) and I felt something whack me across the back of the head. At the same time I got a strange sensation, a feeling I felt run completely through me, that conveyed the message, "About time you showed up!" The feeling was warm and welcoming and joyful. I did not hear a voice. It was a feeling.

I turned to look behind me. Two preschool aged children were in the row behind me. They could not have reached me.

In the following weeks I continued to attend Mass with my friends. I continued to feel that sensation every time. I got interested and decided to look into becoming Catholic. However, I moved to California around that time, and dropped the whole thing.

Fast forward about 12-13 years. I'd felt this push to go back to church periodically for years but always ignored it. However, three years ago my mother was finally diagnosed with Alzheimers and we had to put her in a nursing home. I was undergoing another crisis. The push to go back to church got stronger and stronger, to the point where I was feeling it almost constantly. It was like a nagging feeling that wouldn't go away. Finally, I had this outburst: "Ok, ok! I'll go back to church!"

Instant relief.

I followed through and the feeling of welcome and joy returned.

Yes, folks. In a sense, God bullied me into going back to church. But I have no regrets; I'm very happy about the decision and I know I'm in the right place.

I can't explain why God speaks to people the way he does. I think the approach is adjusted and very individual to our needs as people.

What does Gilhemi hear? I can't say. But if it produces joy for him, he leads a functional life, then who am I to judge? I'll take what he says at face value and let it go at that.

I will say I get the sense we approach faith different. Based on the discussion of young earth creationism in another thread, I think we have very different religous beliefs. That's OK; that doesn't mean I believe him any less. I do think that we are led to the expression of faith that is where we need to be . . . for what ever reason.

[Gravekeeper]

People who hear voices who function: they keep a job, they don't abuse substances, they have extensive social relationships, they have joyful lives . . . what are they really hearing?

Please please please don't start us down this path again. Mental illness and schizophrenia are neither magic nor mysteries. There are actual, visible, physical malfunctions in the brain as well as biomarkers and genetic links. The problems are visible on an EEG or MRI. In fact you can detect the markers of schizophrenia years before its onset using an EEG or MRI.

There's a working scientific theory that a major component of it is a malfunction with the brain's ability to efference copy. Basically, your mind's ability to separate internal and external information. AKA the reason you can't tickle yourself but other people can.

Basically, think of it like this: Imagine someone else talking. When you do this, your brain actually sends a message to the auditory center telling it basically "S'okay, we're imagining a voice not actually hearing it". Separating an internal thought from an external sensory input.

But if this malfunctions ( and there is MRI / EEG evidence suggesting such a malfunction ) your brain incorrectly identifies a source of information or input as being external rather than internal. It wouldn't recognize your own thought as, well, your own thought and perceives it as a separate voice.

[Panacea]

It's not an absolute that you'll see brain changes on CT or MRI, and there are other mental illnesses that are associated with hallucinations. Bipolar disorder with psychotic features, for example.

It's common to see hospice patients interacting with invisible people when they are close to death, and they are not hallucinating. The people they see are real, but deceased or not present. The patients are usually comforted by the people they see.

It's a hallmark of mental illness that people who consistently hear voices or see things lose their ability to function in the real world. It's part of the illness. However, there are plenty of instances where people who are not mentally ill see or hear things. We really don't know what they see or hear. They don't have abnormalities on CT, MRI, or PET scans. They are able to function with what they see or hear. The phenomenon is not distressing to them.

I don't know what they are experiencing. I know what I experienced; I have a frequent sensation of a presence that is beneficent, but insistent when it thinks I should be doing something . . . a something that is not a specific act necessarily but more of following a general path, and that path is never harmful to me or to others. I've had multiple head CTs and an MRI because of my migraines; there is nothing abnormal. No tumors, no defects, no markers. Just a healthy brain.

[Peppergirl]

Mod note: I gave Gilhemi the go ahead to repost. The last one had to be closed because our mod warnings were blatantly ignored.

That said, I'm instructing all of you to please treat each other this time with simple courtesy. I do realize that it's a hot topic for many and that the rules are 'looser' here, but that doesn't mean that it's allowed to devolve into personal attacks. If you find yourself getting that upset or heated, step away from the keyboard or report the post.

Thanks.

[Gilhelmi]

Its reassuring that you haven't run screaming from the site after the first thread. The alleviates a goodly amount of my concerns.

A coward does not do well in the military.
The military also taught me the importance of these issues and not being silent.

When you say things like comparing this to witch hunts that raises a red flag me. Because paranoia and/or a feeling of possible persecution are symptoms of schizophrenia. Ones that often lead to people with the condition not seeking medical advice or help. You insist you are rational but are making an irrational argument. That is a cause for concern.

I agree, unfounded paranoia is very bad and great cause for concern. But, I have seen cases of soldiers with PTSD got wrongly forced out of the service for seeking help, always by some overly gun-hoe a** of an officer. I know one case where the senior official was disciplined, but I know many others were not. Times are changing for the better though, and better training for leaders has reduced this. (Gen. Patton, WW2, is an example of a leader that I would not follow to the latrine, because of his attitude on this.)

A story that happened to me. My unit was mobilizing, and we were going through the SRP (paperwork and vaccine) stage. I was asked "are you feeling depressed". At that time I had a bad boss, a job that paid very little (I made more as a PFC ), and was generally disrespected in civilian life. So I said "Yes, a little, but it is only a minor bump in life". Then they gave me a permanent profile for depression (it was a pain because it always came back up later in medical screenings, even after I passed by the low point. last time I let anyone talk me into signing something. worse, none of them were qualified to diagnosis anything for mental health). All solely biased on one answer from one low point in my life (not even a really bad spot, I was just slightly down). At that point, I lost much of my trust in them.

Trust is like a disassembled jigsaw puzzle, it takes time to put the pieces back together.

I have PTSD

I understand, I have a few friends who went through that.

Were you in the service? I ask because I was a Chaplains Assistant, I am a good listener and will take whatever you say to me to my grave (unless given permission otherwise). Sadly, I can not make that a 'legal' guarantee unless you were in the Armed Forces, but I can try.

A good doctor is there to help you. Not persecute you or dope you up against your will or anything. You're by no means incapacitated or legally unable to make decisions for yourself. They can't make you do anything you don't want to do so you have nothing to lose but possibly something to gain.

That is always the hard part. Around my area, we do not have many 'good' mental health doctors, they all head to bigger cities where there are more people and more money. I have always had a good minister, they can listen (and they have similar ethical requirement for privacy).

[Gilhelmi]

Mental illness and schizophrenia are neither magic nor mysteries.

I agree, but you may want to consider another option. Mental conditions are not the same as mental illnesses. Like I said before, a condition is like skin color (everyone has a shade). Where an illness needs to be treated or it will get worse.

IF a person is not a dangerous to themselves or others and IF they can function normally in society (even if that person seems odd to other people), then are they really mentally ill or are they just different? Different in how they think and act?

This is why I compared my situation to the Homosexuals of the 1950s who were forcibly institutionalized. They were different from community standards and were forced to change or be "treated" in an institution.
It still happens today, not as often (America has gotten better), but sadly, it still happens.

[Gilhelmi]

I almost forgot my best piece of evidence

Nikola Tesla

We know him as one of the greatest inventors of the 20th century.

He had the ability to visualize inventions in such detail that he could disassemble it in his mind to see how it worked. I do not mean just 'see', but actually create a 3D model in his mind that he could manipulate the model (like we would do with a computer today).

His mental condition allowed him great control over creating his inventions. Like my mental condition allows me to have discussions (with myself) to make decisions. (though, sadly, I am not as gifted as Tesla.)

Fun side note: If only he could have completed his "death ray". It would have ended all war because there would be no offence great enough to destroy the devices. Unlike Mutually Assured Destruction, it could only be (theoretically) used as an ultimate defensive weapon. But this is pure speculation.

[Seshat]

There is no objective way to determine how a person perceives anything. How you perceive the colour 'red' is likely to be different from how I do, how Gravekeeper does, and how Panacea does.

The same is true for how we perceive our internal worlds. Some have no internal world. Some are conscious of one or more internal 'thoughtstreams' or internal 'voices' which are perceived as their own thoughts. Some have visual internal worlds. I know three different people whose internal worlds are as multisensate as the 'real' world.

My own concern with Gilhelmi was the possibility of anatomical or neurological damage to his auditory processing section of his brain; or to the part of the forebrain which handles social interactions, or ... well, I'm not a neurologist, but maybe there are other bits which might be affected.
It's also possible that he had/has a disorder similar to Bast's.

That said, as long as Gil has been screened for such conditions - for the sake of his own well-being - then I honestly see no problem with him just shrugging and getting on with his life.


But then, I hallucinate music fairly commonly. So .. meh.
(PS: my skull has also been examined. Apparently it's not filled with cream cheese.)

[Gravekeeper]

It's not an absolute that you'll see brain changes on CT or MRI, and there are other mental illnesses that are associated with hallucinations. Bipolar disorder with psychotic features, for example.

Yes, it is an absolute that brain changes will occur. There are tons of studies on the subject. Also, psychotic is just a general term for disruptions or loss of touch with reality such as hallucinations or delusions. So saying bipolar with psychotic features has hallucinations is redundant. Its kind of like saying people with colds have a cough.

It's common to see hospice patients interacting with invisible people when they are close to death, and they are not hallucinating. The people they see are real, but deceased or not present. The patients are usually comforted by the people they see.

Sorry, but this is demonstrably false. Even without going into the mountain of neuroscience and just flatly looking at the occurrence of near death experiences; The prevalence NDE's are fairly rare to begin with and amongst NDE's they are not always happy head towards the light experiences. They can also be absolutely horrifying experiences. And no, research has shown there is no correlation between positive and negative NDEs and a person's actions or moral character. The rate of negative NDE's is the same regardless of age, race, gender, culture or character. As is the rate of positive ones.

It's a hallmark of mental illness that people who consistently hear voices or see things lose their ability to function in the real world. It's part of the illness.

This is not a hallmark at all. Mental illness is a spectrum. Most people who suffer from these things are in a camp similar to Gilhemli. The crazy dude talking to a ferret on the bus is rare and a worst case scenario.

However, there are plenty of instances where people who are not mentally ill see or hear things. We really don't know what they see or hear. They don't have abnormalities on CT, MRI, or PET scans. They are able to function with what they see or hear. The phenomenon is not distressing to them.

I'm going to stop you right there because you are venturing into the realm of your personal beliefs and bringing faith into this again. You are also coming close to arguing semantics and making broad claims for which you have no evidence. Which forces me to yet again go get mountains of neurological research to explain things. When it is in fact you that this burden of proof should be on.

So I will just repeat what I said before: This stuff is not magic and it is not a mystery. Perception is a mechanical function and like all functions of the body it can malfunction or fail. Just because you may not know or understand the mechanics of neuroscience does not mean it becomes a mysterious or supernatural phenomena.

If you're looking out a window and the glass is foggy, it doesn't mean there's fog outside.

[Ginger Tea]

There is no objective way to determine how a person perceives anything. How you perceive the colour 'red' is likely to be different from how I do, how Gravekeeper does, and how Panacea does.

But then, I hallucinate music fairly commonly. So .. meh.

A few years ago I bought a book called "The pig that wants to be eaten" (and 99 other thought experiments)

One such experiment dealt with the perception of colour and how we might see it drastically yet never know as we all use the word Red.

As for the music, BTDT, sometimes its a song I know and it plays note perfect that one time I thought a CD was playing (it wasn't when I checked and even if it did start playing by itself, it wasn't even the same album), that or I 'compose' a tune veering towards the glitch genre and wish I could capture it for later enjoyment.

[Gravekeeper]

I agree, unfounded paranoia is very bad and great cause for concern. But, I have seen cases of soldiers with PTSD got wrongly forced out of the service for seeking help, always by some overly gun-hoe a** of an officer.

Ah....we're talking about the US military aren't we? Suddenly a lot of what you say makes a lot more sense.

Were you in the service? I ask because I was a Chaplains Assistant, I am a good listener and will take whatever you say to me to my grave (unless given permission otherwise). Sadly, I can not make that a 'legal' guarantee unless you were in the Armed Forces, but I can try.

No, I am or was in essence an emergency dispatcher on the third shift for about 10 years. Part of what I did was run of the mill customer service. The other part of what I did, well, yeah. I've shared many a stupid story on Customer's Suck about the service part of things but I've never talked on there about the emergency part of things. Add to that I worked in a high security call center ( nothing in or out, you're not even allowed to have paper or a pencil ) and was under a non-disclosure contract.

I wouldn't even know where to begin in terms of the shit I have seen, heard or dealt with over the years in the course of that job.

That is always the hard part. Around my area, we do not have many 'good' mental health doctors, they all head to bigger cities where there are more people and more money. I have always had a good minister, they can listen (and they have similar ethical requirement for privacy).

Yes, allow me to apologize if I came across as too strong on you. I'm Canadian myself so when I think of healthcare it's without the concern of cost or quality. If I lived in the US I'd be living on the street.

I agree, but you may want to consider another option. Mental conditions are not the same as mental illnesses. Like I said before, a condition is like skin color (everyone has a shade). Where an illness needs to be treated or it will get worse.

IF a person is not a dangerous to themselves or others and IF they can function normally in society (even if that person seems odd to other people), then are they really mentally ill or are they just different? Different in how they think and act?

But this is just a matter of semantics. A mental condition is officially referred to as a disorder and schizophrenia is officially classified as a disorder. The term "mental illness" is more of a layman's term and is used when a disorder is severe enough to interfere with quality of life or daily functioning.

If we get technical about it, you have a mental disorder, but I am mentally ill.

But yes, I agree with you that the state of mental health care and the cultural perception of it in America is really poor. If you are still enlisted in the military then doubly so. I can see why you would be wary about your experiences.

I almost forgot my best piece of evidence

Well, I'm not sure evidence is the right word as I'm not sure precisely what you're trying to prove. You are correct in that Tesla had a condition and despite its drawbacks it had a beneficial conduit. However, Tesla suffered from numerous problems due to it. Migraines, hyperthymesia, obsessive compulsive disorder, social anxiety, manic episodes, you name it. He's a textbook manic actually and it greatly disrupted his life. Dude was pretty much a spot on mad scientist. The benefits he brought to society as an inventor though outweighed the problems with dealing with him and some of his more bizarre and outlandish beliefs.

So Tesla was actually mentally ill. He did not have a condition.

Fun side note: If only he could have completed his "death ray". It would have ended all war because there would be no offence great enough to destroy the devices. Unlike Mutually Assured Destruction, it could only be (theoretically) used as an ultimate defensive weapon. But this is pure speculation.

Tesla's death ray is a myth. Even he himself strenuously objected to the term death ray. What Tesla described was basically a particle projection cannon. So an early form of a directed energy weapon of which we do have these days. It was also not functional and not feasible. He did send all of the technical designs to the Allies amongst others.

Even if it had worked it would not have ended all war. Not even close. It was a directed energy weapon firing a beam of charged particles. Thus it only works in a straight line. That would limit its range to line of sight. Similar limitations to a laser in other words. Your range is limited by the curvature of the Earth ( about 200ish miles? ), target visibility, etc.

So even if the rest of the world ignored you for the 10-15 years required to build all the power infrastructure to power it. And you managed absolute border security and suppression of your own population so it wasn't sabotaged or attacked from with. That would still give only give you a defensive range of about 200 miles ( provided that 200 miles was completely flat and devoid of obstructions ) and specifically against aircraft. Tesla was big on the fear of aircraft at the time ( with good reason giving how World War II unfolded ).

Such a system would be very weak to attack, very dependent on good weather conditions, very dependent on having highly advanced targeting systems ( decades beyond what was available at the time ) and couldn't do anything against any sort of long range ballistic weapon.

.....I sense I have been sidetracked by my own nerdiness.

[Seshat]

Gravekeeper:

In Australia, one of the conditions which must exist for a mental abnormality to be considered a defect (defect, illness, whatever-you-call-it) is that it must interfere with the patient's ability to live a normal life.

Oh, there's all sorts of technical phrasing that makes it much less ambiguous than how I stated it just there; but basically it amounts to 'if the person is living a happy, productive life, and their eccentricity isn't bothering them, and there's no prognosis of Bad Shit About To Happen ... leave them alone'.

Naturally, if they have a malignant tumour, that's different. If they're a danger to themselves or others, that's different. And if they're too anxious/depressed/psychotic/whatever to be happy, to hold down a job, to have a satisfying social life .. that's also different.

But if they're just fine; don't fix what ain't broke.

[cindybubbles]

I agree with Seshat. It's one thing to voice your concerns to a friend who, say, hears voices, but if that friend is fine with it, then there's not much anyone can do except to leave him alone.