What A Compassionate President

[ZedOmega]

Where in the heck to start...if there is a place to start. I think a lot of people give the president either too much credit, or too much blame. While I have used generalized counters before when somebody bashes on Obama like..

"You realize that the 'golden parachute' everybody hates Obama for was first started, debated, and talked about under Bush right?" I am neither a fan of Obama..or Bush. Or Clinton, etc. I think Obama is INEFFECTUAL, but then again..I also think that the deck was stacked against him when he got into office. An already crumbling economy was just ONE of the problems he faced.

People pretty much had already made up their minds six months in, and nothing Obama could have done would have changed it.

Thing is, that the president (either of them) can't do much without the senate and house. Neither Bush nor Obama. People are acting like it was SOLELY these two, when the President is not much more then a figure head. Guess it is handy to have a scapegoat. *shrugs*

Very true, but praising Lurie for letting Vick play despite Vick's criminal record is just giving the anti-Obama crowd ammunition. Most of the comments in the article blas linked in her OP are along the lines of 'what the hell is he thinking?!' Setting laws and policies into action is one thing, but the president doesn't need a House vote to make a phone call.

[Hyena Dandy]

Zed, could you possibly explain how Vick bought his way out of trouble for me? I don't feel he did, but perhaps you have information I don't.

[ZedOmega]

It wasn't just the dogfighting circuit they had set up, it was also the illegal gambling aspects of it. His pleading guilty to the dogfighting charges were part of a plea bargain to avoid the penalties the RICO act would've hit him with (besides the gambling, there was also minor drug-related activities going on during the fights); he'd still be in jail and would be for at least 20 years otherwise.

Here's the facts summary that Vick submitted to the court. The court would've ravaged him and his cohorts without the plea bargain.

[HYHYBT]

That only shows that he *could* have been charged with more and gotten a tougher sentence. You claim that he *bought* his way out of trouble, specifically with money. What evidence do you have *for the very serious claim you actually made,* as opposed to its being an ordinary, common, everyday plea bargain arrangement?

edit to clarify: hiring a competent lawyer does *not* qualify as "buying your way out" of anything.

[KnitShoni]

That only shows that he *could* have been charged with more and gotten a tougher sentence. You claim that he *bought* his way out of trouble, specifically with money. What evidence do you have *for the very serious claim you actually made,* as opposed to its being an ordinary, common, everyday plea bargain arrangement?

edit to clarify: hiring a competent lawyer does *not* qualify as "buying your way out" of anything.

This.

I'm not seeing where the deal he got would have been all that different if he weren't a pro-athlete. This happens all the time.

[ZedOmega]

How much do you think a legal team that could get a sentence reduced from a possible 25 years to two would cost? The average person wouldn't be able to afford a team who could pull that off, and state-assigned lawyers would just give enough of an effort to justify their license.

Oh, and just to let you know, had I meant that he bribed his way out, which is what you're implying I said, I'd have said it flat-out.

[Andara Bledin]

How much do you think a legal team that could get a sentence reduced from a possible 25 years to two would cost? The average person wouldn't be able to afford a team who could pull that off, and state-assigned lawyers would just give enough of an effort to justify their license.

The maximum possible sentence length is really not a good indicator, since most people don't get hit with the max punishment.

Also, how much rolling over did he do to bargain his time down?

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

I'm not completely familiar with case law, but isn't it relatively uncommon for sentences to not be maximum? I mean, most of what I've seen of the justice system is on law and order, where lawyers tend to try to get the maximum possible sentence because that makes a better story.

I'll have to talk to some of my lawyer relatives about this. They might know more.

It also looks to me like the facts Vick submitted were submitted as part of his plea bargain. If it had gone to trial, those facts might not have been made aware to the court. I think that's how plea bargains usually work, although that may just be Law and Order bias... I mean, "I don't think you can convict on X, so we'll plead guilty to Y."

Or in this case, it looks more like, "You may not be able to convict on X, so I'll plead guilty on Y, and throw my associates under the bus as well."

That sounds like a deal that you don't need a multi-million dollar lawyer team for.

[ZedOmega]

Sorry I took so long with the response. CivIII PTW has been eating my soul lately.

The maximum possible sentence length is really not a good indicator, since most people don't get hit with the max punishment.

Also, how much rolling over did he do to bargain his time down?

^-.-^

That's information I honestly wish I had.

Getting back to the point I was trying to make, though, I still think Obama's taking a huge risk with that phone call. The only thing that could make it worse for him is if, once Plaxico Burress is released from prison and if he's allowed back into the NFL, Obama gives whatever coach signs him on the same phone call.

[Greenday]

Getting back to the point I was trying to make, though, I still think Obama's taking a huge risk with that phone call. The only thing that could make it worse for him is if, once Plaxico Burress is released from prison and if he's allowed back into the NFL, Obama gives whatever coach signs him on the same phone call.

What risk? Those who hate Obama will continue to hate Obama. Those who like Obama will continue to like Obama. If Palin runs against him, he will still win. I'd wager tons of money on that.

[Andara Bledin]

I mean, most of what I've seen of the justice system is on law and order, where lawyers tend to try to get the maximum possible sentence because that makes a better story.

The L&O stuff really doesn't make up the bulk of what we see in the courts. Plus, the prosecution is always going to play for the maximum being deserved so they have a starting point when it gets to the bargaining table, like it did for Vick. For things where they're either not sure of the outcome or they want more than just the person on trial right there, they'll go to the table to put a deal together.

Remember the "being famous" is a double edged sword in court. On one hand, you have the resources to get a really good lawyer to represent you. On the other hand, your name is in the papers, so the other side will try to use you as an opportunity to set an example.

Also, don't confuse being able to afford really good representation with somehow gaming the system.

^-.-^

[Rapscallion]

What risk? Those who hate Obama will continue to hate Obama. Those who like Obama will continue to like Obama. If Palin runs against him, he will still win. I'd wager tons of money on that.

The problem comes with swing voters. There are large swathes of the population who will vote for one of the two main parties in the US, but there's a significant chunk of the population who swing from side to side depending on factors that are important to them.

Swing voters won't necessarily remember exact events and reasons for them, but they'll often remember that they're not keen on a certain person for some reason or other.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

The problem comes with swing voters. There are large swathes of the population who will vote for one of the two main parties in the US, but there's a significant chunk of the population who swing from side to side depending on factors that are important to them.

Swing voters won't necessarily remember exact events and reasons for them, but they'll often remember that they're not keen on a certain person for some reason or other.

Rapscallion

Congratulating a football coach for taking a chance with a guy who just got out of prison won't swing many people. Especially when your other option is a complete moron who is a disgrace to women everywhere. I'd sooner vote for one of my dogs than Palin. If anything, that phone call will increase the amount of votes from people in Eastern PA and South Jersey.

[Rapscallion]

Congratulating a football coach for taking a chance with a guy who just got out of prison won't swing many people. Especially when your other option is a complete moron who is a disgrace to women everywhere. I'd sooner vote for one of my dogs than Palin. If anything, that phone call will increase the amount of votes from people in Eastern PA and South Jersey.

Plenty of outraged pet owners out there, mate. This thread proves it.

It depends how much research past the headlines people do as to whether or not this particular event makes swing voters turn. There was a memorable quote from a fictional play about the printed press industry along the lines of only checking the spelling on the headline and first paragraph, because many people don't read further than that. I saw research a while back (and I read most of it, for the record) that confirms this.

The politicians on either side aren't really trying to preach to their confirmed allies - they're after the swing voters. They know they can gain some political capital out of events like thisl.

Rapscallion

[blas87]

And now thanks to the Packers , that animal abusing loser gets some time now that he could really use to lay low and stay the hell out of the spotlight.